G-1 Jacket without a Fur Collar

[G-1_USN_USMC_USCG]

Fellow Jacket Collectors,
Was just wondering if anyone had come across any documentation to support removing the fur collar from the G-1 jacket in hot climates (e.g. Cockpit USA sells a G-1 jacket version (the "Forrestal" version) which is supposed to imitate what some Vietnam War aviators did to their jackets while assigned to Yankee or Dixie Station). Does any one know if there is any truth to this suggestion? Makes for a fine and unique jacket...just wondered if it had ever really been done. Thanks for the help.

Happy New Year
Mike

 

[Fonzie]

I believe that style is called ANJ-3

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/product-detail.php?id=976


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[galvestonokie]

i've done the conversion from mouton to goatskin collar since i live in a tropical climate. results have been mixed. in some cases, the new goat collar looks too small. but YMMV

 

[Brettafett]

Watch 80's cult film Tuff Turf

I understood that it was a personal thing done in theatre... Guess, as everything else in this world... depends who you talk too. Doubt it was documented unless you can find a pic.

ANJ-3 was a A-2/G-1 hybrid, produced with a leather collar - like an A-2 and G-2 had some fun and an ANJ-3 was the result

 

[bn1966]

I love an ANJ 3

 

[Deacon211]

I really like the ANJ as well, but I'll say personally that I think this claim is stuffed full of wild blueberry muffins.

First of all, it's almost entirely a Cockpit USA claim and they claim it for whatever era matches the patches on their jacket (PBY pilots, F-4 pilots, etc) which seems entirely too convenient.

Second of all, understanding that wartime practices often allow a little leeway, you really can't just do what you want with your flying equipment. Many guys in my era wore aftermarket G-1s or ones that had some subtle mods done to them. But a completely different non-fur collar is a pretty noticeable change.

Third, you really start to wonder who is doing the work on these alterations. Not many tailor shops on Guadalcanal! I'm being facetious of course. But, again depending on the era, Navy/Marine flyers didn't exactly have access to a lot of people who could do this work. Much of the day to day repair work in a squadron is done in the paraloft. And while some of those guys were very talented, much of it is purely functional.

"Need velcro on your flight suit? All we have is black; and we're sewing it on with green Nomex thread that we use to sew your G-suit!"

Lastly is the "why?". Pilots already had a summer weight flying jacket in cloth. Why shred your G-1? Especially since you are either going to be flying around at 20,000ft where it is cold, or sitting on the carrier in the South Pacific, where it is so hot you won't be wearing it at all. It just seems like an awful lot of effort.

Of course, I'm sure there is one guy who did it. So, much like the Cockpit's claim that "an actual Forrestal" pilot picked out the patches for that jacket, you probably can't say that the claim is UNtrue....just perhaps not AS true as the catalogue would have you believe.

My opinion entirely of course as always.

 

[galvestonokie]

Deac et al: if memory serves the Aero page is at least partially correct. i have seen a few of these issued ANJ jackets for sale and they vary (shocker) even within the ANJ designation--some had epaulettes, some didn't. but all i've seen had a leather collar and a bi-swing back. what i remember is that this was a short-lived effort to standardize leather flight jackets among the services. but soon, the USAAF decided on nylon (i think) jackets. i believe the ANJ is a better jacket than the A-2 parent because of the bi-swing back. military aircrews must move around some.

i do agree with Deac, that in my squadron no one (that i knew of) made many changes to issued flight gear. in my case, i had to return it when i was through with it and they wanted it to resemble the issued product. i did get the paraloft guys to adjust the fit of a nylon-velcro paraloft-produced shoulder holster and to update the black paint job on my helmet. i did read somewhere that some Navy pilots purchased mink somewhere while on a Med cruise and had replaced the mouton/dynel G-1 collars with mink. but this would be pretty easy to do and get away with as long as the collar resembled the dark brown original color--and you had someone to do the tailoring.

just a historical side note: although i believe the leather jackets (G-1 and A-2 families) are generally preferred today over nylon or nomex, we preferred the nylon WEP jackets while flying in Southeast Asia in the winter. we tended to be extremely practical. the reasons for this preference were simple: the WEP jackets were warmer, and IMHO afforded more movement in the back of a gunship (where gunners were responsible for firing and maintaining 6 machine guns per aircraft. and this sometimes included stepping outside into the slipstream to clear guns or assist in jetisonning rocket pods.) i also believe that while Naval service pilots were issued G-1s in flight school, enlisted aircrew received jackets (when available) at the squadron level. i wore an M-65 field jacket while flying for the first couple of months until i obtained a WEP jacket.

just sayin... bob

 

[galvestonokie]

another thought: at the time we wore the WEPs, no one (that i know of) ever mentioned the fact that they were not nomex and therefore a risk in flight. not sure when the WEPs were no longer issued but i expect in the mid-late 1960s although i understand they are still worn around the squadron area when not flying.

 

[Flightengineer]

another thought: at the time we wore the WEPs, no one (that i know of) ever mentioned the fact that they were not nomex and therefore a risk in flight. not sure when the WEPs were no longer issued but i expect in the mid-late 1960s although i understand they are still worn around the squadron area when not flying.

It was always a mystery for me why nylon was used for these jackets, in case of fire in cockpit, burn injuries are guaranteed.

 

[bn1966]

One that passed through my hands

 

[galvestonokie]

regarding the use of nylon in the popular WEP jackets, i assume there were two reasons for the nylon. these jackets were being phased out in the 1960s, so i assume they'd been around a while, maybe before the introduction of nomex. during the 1950s, seems like the USAF was also using lots of nylon jackets. also, the WEPs were intended to be the top half of a "poopy" suit, to be worn as an undergarment in a cold weather environment. but who really knows??

 

[johnnyjohnny]

as someone noted, whether some guy on the Forrestal had his mouton collar removed for a leather one in the hot Tonkin Gulf is apocryphal or not...the story has the benefit of not being able to unprove.

what's of more importance, and led me to buy the unpatched cockpit Forrestal version a few minutes ago, is that it's a pretty perfect ANJ-3...the one of two versions that had no epaulettes and had the USN perfed inside windflap.

so it really doesn't need to be historical to the Forrestal, and with no patches and seal brown, it can just be the ANJ-3, which itself was thought to be apocryphal until the history was revealed that a few dozen were actually made, handed out, but was never contracted.

i don't care for the epaulette/outside flap version, and the cockpit Forrestal is the other of the two. also, the Forrestals are nicely vintaged and well designed as an ANJ-3 type. the only difference is the collar snaps, which i've found no ANJ's to have.

whether or not the hot weather collar story is correct, the Forrestal looks to be a super ANJ jacket with only the snaps putting it at variance with the actual historical dozen or so made. i doubt pilots wore them in flight, every pilot photo i've seen shows them rather in flight attire, but for other activity the G-1 and ANJ-3 were enjoyed.

already a few pics of the Forrestal, but i posted another of the version i just purchased at the top.

 

[Edward]

Watch 80's cult film Tuff Turf

I understood that it was a personal thing done in theatre... Guess, as everything else in this world... depends who you talk too. Doubt it was documented unless you can find a pic.

ANJ-3 was a A-2/G-1 hybrid, produced with a leather collar - like an A-2 and G-2 had some fun and an ANJ-3 was the result

If memory serves the ANJ3 was never widely issued, given that the army went the way of textiles with the B10 / B15, and then of course the Airforce did its own thing when it became a separate branch of service from 47.

Amusing to be reminded, though, that the short-lived attempt to create a common standard jacket for the Navy and Army produced two distinct types...

Some years ago, I briefly owned one of the Aero jackets, bought used, which I resold on TFL owing to sizing. Those are *tight* fighting - even moreso than a USN M442a, in which I still need to go up a size or two from an A2. To the best of my knowledge, this is accurate too.

It was a nice jacket, the hybrid design reminding me of a lot of civilian takes on the leather bomber jacket from the 40s onwards. For me personally, though, I still much prefer the original USN design mouton collar and all, it's just that much more distinct.

That said, I could see why anyone wearing one in much hotter weather might well prefer the leather collar. I have also owned both an Aero A2 and Aero AN6552 both made from the same goathide. The USN jacket was much warmer - the only real difference on that front being the mouton collar and the rayon (non-breathable) lining.

Of course, I'm sure there is one guy who did it. So, much like the Cockpit's claim that "an actual Forrestal" pilot picked out the patches for that jacket, you probably can't say that the claim is UNtrue....just perhaps not AS true as the catalogue would have you believe.

My opinion entirely of course as always.

Makes sense to me. Same with anything really - it only takes one guy to do it for a cool, popular photograph.... Similarly, the guys who wore painted A2s were much rarer during the war than now popularly depicted.

Deac et al: if memory serves the Aero page is at least partially correct. i have seen a few of these issued ANJ jackets for sale and they vary (shocker) even within the ANJ designation--some had epaulettes, some didn't. but all i've seen had a leather collar and a bi-swing back. what i remember is that this was a short-lived effort to standardize leather flight jackets among the services. but soon, the USAAF decided on nylon (i think) jackets. i believe the ANJ is a better jacket than the A-2 parent because of the bi-swing back. military aircrews must move around some.

I'm a fan of both. I love the A2 for its design simplicity, and paradoxically at the same time the USN jackets for their frills. It does seem inevitable the A2 would become the most romanticised, given its big association with WW2 and the way that war is remembered in popular culture. Had Virgil Hilts flown with the USN, things might be very different, of course.

It wouldn't surprise me if the USN / ANJ designs were preferred by actual pilots, but the A2 preferred by those in control of the purse strings.

i wore an M-65 field jacket while flying for the first couple of months until i obtained a WEP jacket.

That's the kind of thing I find fascinating - on the ground deviations from uniform norm. Bit like those photos you see of AVG pilots in Tanker jackets and all sorts.

 

[Deacon211]

That’s a great looking jacket!

I tend to agree that, historical bragging rights aside, the ANJ really is the best of both flight jacket worlds.

As we’ve discussed, it’s really difficult to say for certain whether the “collarless G-1” was a thing. But I’d gently advise a certain amount of skepticism when dealing with advertising print. Especially with regard to the Cockpit/Avirex.

In some ways, I’d guess you could call me a “frenemy” of the Cockpit. On one hand, and I may be biased, I’ve always considered the Cockpit to have been one of the earliest and most powerful instruments in the resurrection of the flight jacket. In the ‘80s Avirex jackets were everywhere. Moreover, I’ve always found Cockpit gear to be well made, good looking, and long lasting.

But the Cockpit was/is a commercial enterprise; and not a historical institution. Thus much like the colorful, but highly dubious, legacy of Maverick’s father's jacket, fashion sense often trumps historical accuracy.

There are many examples of this. Collarless G-1s. Escape maps linings. B-3s with handwarmer pockets advertised as a field mod. At one point, the mil spec G-1 ad copy even claimed something to the effect that the Cockpit was a supplier to the US military.

Which was true…just not of the G-1.

The greatest and most memorable of these however, was the story of the G8, or Type 440 jacket. A fantastic looking, knitless flight jacket with distinctive diamond elbow patches whose design predates the m-422/G-1.

Except it doesn’t. As admitted here a few years ago, the Type 440 was a notional commercial design with some “elements” that could be found in various earlier Navy jackets.

But the design looked so good and had been advertised for so long as an actual issue item that most people, myself included, totally accepted it as fact.

So you can see how these things happen.

In the end, I’m just relating this stuff to keep some of the Lounge history alive. Whatever the Cockpit is calling the collarless G-1, I still think that it’s a great design, looks smashing and that people should buy it if they like it.

I just wouldn’t want anyone to buy one under false pretenses.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

That’s a great looking jacket!

I tend to agree that, historical bragging rights aside, the ANJ really is the best of both flight jacket worlds.

As we’ve discussed, it’s really difficult to say for certain whether the “collarless G-1” was a thing. But I’d gently advise a certain amount of skepticism when dealing with advertising print. Especially with regard to the Cockpit/Avirex.

In some ways, I’d guess you could call me a “frenemy” of the Cockpit. On one hand, and I may be biased, I’ve always considered the Cockpit to have been one of the earliest and most powerful instruments in the resurrection of the flight jacket. In the ‘80s Avirex jackets were everywhere. Moreover, I’ve always found Cockpit gear to be well made, good looking, and long lasting.

But the Cockpit was/is a commercial enterprise; and not a historical institution. Thus much like the colorful, but highly dubious, legacy of Maverick’s father's jacket, fashion sense often trumps historical accuracy.

There are many examples of this. Collarless G-1s. Escape maps linings. B-3s with handwarmer pockets advertised as a field mod. At one point, the mil spec G-1 ad copy even claimed something to the effect that the Cockpit was a supplier to the US military.

Which was true…just not of the G-1.

The greatest and most memorable of these however, was the story of the G8, or Type 440 jacket. A fantastic looking knitless flight jacket with distinctive diamond elbow patches whose design predates the m-422/G-1.

Except it doesn’t. As admitted here a few years ago, the Type 440 was a notional design with some “elements” that could be found in earlier Navy jackets.

But the design looked so good and had been offered for so long as an actual issue item that most people, myself included, totally accepted it as fact.

So you can see how these things happen.

In the end, I’m just relating this stuff to keep some of the Lounge history alive. Whatever the Cockpit is calling the collarless G-1, I still think that it’s a great design, looks smashing and that people should buy it if they like it.

I just wouldn’t want anyone to buy one under false pretenses.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

cockpitusa uss forrestal G-1 style flight jacket in the ANJ-2 style of no fur collar

posting again on this because 1. i saw deacon's summation, which is great, and 2. because since i posted above i received this and as good as the pictures are, they really don't do the jacket justice.

the cut of it looks fully military, trim but not ww2 tiny sized. it is lightly distressed or 'vintaged' and the leather is super tough goat but the jacket has a very light weight to it, great for someone from Calif as me, or a spring jacket.

the historical stuff aside, which has been done to death, it does look like an authentic issued piece in every respect, of course having no side entry pockets. i say that not to vouch for veracity of historical claims, but as reference to the many actual mil issued G-1s i've gotten and sold over the years. no one will be disappointed from the respect of whether this appears/looks/meets specs to an actual military contract/issued jacket. even if from the outset you know this never was.

so the musings about the collar aside, the thing meets any and every military expectation anyone on this forum or who served, might have...except the one of whether anyone ever did this to the collar of their G-1 on a US carrier or elsewhere.

it is now my favorite jacket...over real issue G-1s and my fur collared ones, over my actual LAPD issue motorcycle officer's jacket, or my Lewis Leather ww2 Luftwaffe spot on recreation.

not to say this forrestal is better, or the others are lacking. i mention them as they are my favorites. but the first time on this had them all beat, if only regarding my personal preference.

so i'd say if you can get over the collar 'history'/ad copy, if you have my tastes as implied above, you might just adore this quasi historical piece.

 

[Deacon211]

Looks great! Wear it in good health.

I believe that the Forrestal is basically the same cut and leather as the 100 Mission jacket, one of which I still have.

And I couldn’t agree more. That jacket is a winner!

 

[kojax]

how much was the jacket thank you

 

[johnnyjohnny]

how much was the jacket thank you

well, i actually got it on legendaryusa.com because they usually have cockpit stuff a bit off, and i was also able to scout out a legendary coupon to use...so cockpit's price of $612 (already on sale i think) came down to just over $500. it's worth the $612, given that most of these premium military jackets are in the $500-$700 range these days.

for info sake, i also got the vintaged out cockpit G-1 called the 'avenger' and it's superb if you want an authentic style G-1. it does have hidden side entry pockets that can be sewn shut if you are a stickler, but i just don't use mine and they lay flat and hidden.

these 2 jackets are a superb set. if you decide to get the Forrestal (which i recommend as i know most of you will love it) try for a coupon if you're on either co.'s mailing list, or if not then just google search and you might luck out as i did for legendary.

 

[seres]

well, i actually got it on legendaryusa.com ....i also got the vintaged out cockpit G-1 called the 'avenger' and it's superb if you want an authentic style G-1....

How do the ACTUAL jacket measurements compare to those estimated measurement supplied by Legendary?