Full Grain v. Top Grain

[Marphtwo]

Well I will take any opinions on the subject I posted. Do you guys think it is real leather and not the bonded stuff based on those pictures?

 

[Capesofwrath]

Can’t say I like the look of it. Difficult to tell too much from pictures….

 

[Sloan1874]

The smell is the tanning process,

I am hoping @andyfalzon can chime in as he seems quite knowledgeable.

I seriously hope he won't, pompous braggart that he was/almost certainly still is. Basically, his opinion boiled down to this: "Our leather is vastly better than any other makers'. Not just that, it's better and truer than any of the leathers that we've used in the past - you know, the ones we'd told you we could not better? And if you don't believe us, just look at the massive surcharge we've stuck on our latest and greatest, there's your guarantee!"
Of course, that's not to say their jackets aren't nice, it's just that their salesmanship is several notches below Lost World's 'approach'.

 

[IXL]

I am hoping @andyfalzon can chime in as he seems quite knowledgeable.

It would probably be for the best to not try and wake the dead.

 

[Superfluous]

it's just that their salesmanship is several notches below Lost World's 'approach'.

 

[Otter]

He is allowed back between 31st October and 2nd November. The classic Mexican "Day of the Dead"

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Help me out guys. I am about to buy a leather couch from a big store retailer that has been know to sell bonded leather. Ivery learned my lesson there.

This couch in question however is purported to be top grain leather. Can you help me verify it is really top grain?

What I observed:
1. No hair follicle holes (see attached) but the grain looks real and random enough from top grain. Maybe it's painted?
2. It does smell like leather
3. I found a way to see the back and it feels like suede but it's black. (See attached)

Please let me know what you think

Yeah it's probably a top grain but not a good quality one. That sandwich effect ( dyed on both surfaces but undyed in the center).when looking at the cross section is typical of cheaper leathers. Top grain does have an artificial surface applied as opposed to full grain where the grain surface is natural. Top grain leather doesn't develope patina as it's rather plasticy but the surface is less fragile than full grain.

 

[Windstorm81]

Yeah it's probably a top grain but not a good quality one. That sandwich effect ( dyed on both surfaces but undyed in the center).when looking at the cross section is typical of cheaper leathers. Top grain does have an artificial surface applied as opposed to full grain where the grain surface is natural. Top grain leather doesn't develope patina as it's rather plasticy but the surface is less fragile than full grain.

If Top grain doesn't develop patina and doesn't age as well, why do people like Vanson jackets so much since their jackets are all top grain cowhide?? I am just asking for my own knowledge because I have their Octagon and now a little worried if it's going develop and age as nice with time

 

[nick123]

My 2 cents beanbag observation: the differences are minimal. Probably most important how the leather is tanned. The full-vs top grain is just an extra layer of sprinkles on the cake, but not the cake itself. That was my conclusion reading this thread.

Of course opponents will argue the difference is a cake from the local supermarket vs. a cake from the Cake Boss, but that's democracy.

 

[Superfluous]

A picture speaks a thousand words: https://www.instagram.com/p/_P23ynqT0g/?taken-by=himelbros

 

[himelator]

Help me out guys. I am about to buy a leather couch from a big store retailer that has been know to sell bonded leather. Ivery learned my lesson there.

This couch in question however is purported to be top grain leather. Can you help me verify it is really top grain?

What I observed:
1. No hair follicle holes (see attached) but the grain looks real and random enough from top grain. Maybe it's painted?
2. It does smell like leather
3. I found a way to see the back and it feels like suede but it's black. (See attached)

Please let me know what you think

 

[himelator]

regarding your couch leather...what it looks like...chrome tanned (that accounts for the blueish colour in the middle, topgrain leather (what that means is the natural grain is still present) dyed on the suede side, and possibly vat dyed, with a clear finish or semi or possibly pigment finish on the top. I would guess its south American hide. Regarding top /full grain these are comparable terms that mean very little...i.e. you generally will never see hair follicles without a microscope...second, natural grain would be a better term....meaning the surface is the epidermis in its natural grain state...(not embossed or split) now...cheaper leathers are "highly corrected" this process can mean buffing (sanding to take out scars and brands) or pressing/rolling and many other forms of "correction"...almost all leather is corrected as uncorrected leather is extremely extremely expensive and very hard to make furniture or jackets from due to the fact most people don't like imperfections in their hides and with these items the leather panels must be large and matching. Large furniture pieces that use uncorrected hides usually accent the imperfections and use aniline dyes to highlight the imperfections with a cant beat em join em attitude.....doesn't work so well with garments. As an example I met with Victoria leather in Italy and the owner explained that their leathers (which are very high quality horsehides that I will be offering this year) are quick veg tanned (tanned in a drum) and "lightly buffed" meaning very pronounced scars and brands are "buffed" off....I had this experience before when I ordered a load ...that being said the leather is very very nice and full grain and for the most part uncorrected, the light buff on scars allows for a larger yield when cutting garments because there are virtually no prominent scars to cut around....the only way to have completely uncorrected clean full grain leather is to buy perfect skins from perfect animals...that grade is very very rare and this greatly increases the cost (as you would imagine if one customer came in and purchased all the number one grades and left the rest for other customers). So a tannery demanding that grade would have to pay much more for the raw green hides. Also , tanneries usually grade their final products and because of that they also stream the leather to different customers via grade....a glove or shoe manufacturer would have more leeway to cut around scars due to smaller panels vs a jacket maker or a furniture maker...also different jacket designs require different size panels...a large back panel makes for a more expensive jacket because you need to cut the panel from the centre of a hide. One of the side effects of cheap labour costs and high leather costs for example and the jerkin vests of ww 2 often seamed together leather pieces to cut the big panels...similarly the patch or scale work jackets of the 1960s recycled the leather off cuts using cheap labour to make a sort of leather fabric. So I hope that helps determine the answer regarding your furniture leather...and leather questions in general...when I relaunch my blog I will write extensively on the topic...i have been to over 50 tanneries mostly horsehide in 4 countries and had extensive conversations about the tanning process with gentlemen that have been doing this since the 1940s. Its a really beautiful art form as complex as wine making. I hope to share this in the near future.
best
Himel

 

[Sloan1874]

Great post. Just what this thread has been screaming out for.

 

[Superfluous]

Great post. Just what this thread has been screaming out for.

 

[Marphtwo]

regarding your couch leather...what it looks like...chrome tanned (that accounts for the blueish colour in the middle, topgrain leather (what that means is the natural grain is still present) dyed on the suede side, and possibly vat dyed, with a clear finish or semi or possibly pigment finish on the top. I would guess its south American hide. Regarding top /full grain these are comparable terms that mean very little...i.e. you generally will never see hair follicles without a microscope...second, natural grain would be a better term....meaning the surface is the epidermis in its natural grain state...(not embossed or split) now...cheaper leathers are "highly corrected" this process can mean buffing (sanding to take out scars and brands) or pressing/rolling and many other forms of "correction"...almost all leather is corrected as uncorrected leather is extremely extremely expensive and very hard to make furniture or jackets from due to the fact most people don't like imperfections in their hides and with these items the leather panels must be large and matching. Large furniture pieces that use uncorrected hides usually accent the imperfections and use aniline dyes to highlight the imperfections with a cant beat em join em attitude.....doesn't work so well with garments. As an example I met with Victoria leather in Italy and the owner explained that their leathers (which are very high quality horsehides that I will be offering this year) are quick veg tanned (tanned in a drum) and "lightly buffed" meaning very pronounced scars and brands are "buffed" off....I had this experience before when I ordered a load ...that being said the leather is very very nice and full grain and for the most part uncorrected, the light buff on scars allows for a larger yield when cutting garments because there are virtually no prominent scars to cut around....the only way to have completely uncorrected clean full grain leather is to buy perfect skins from perfect animals...that grade is very very rare and this greatly increases the cost (as you would imagine if one customer came in and purchased all the number one grades and left the rest for other customers). So a tannery demanding that grade would have to pay much more for the raw green hides. Also , tanneries usually grade their final products and because of that they also stream the leather to different customers via grade....a glove or shoe manufacturer would have more leeway to cut around scars due to smaller panels vs a jacket maker or a furniture maker...also different jacket designs require different size panels...a large back panel makes for a more expensive jacket because you need to cut the panel from the centre of a hide. One of the side effects of cheap labour costs and high leather costs for example and the jerkin vests of ww 2 often seamed together leather pieces to cut the big panels...similarly the patch or scale work jackets of the 1960s recycled the leather off cuts using cheap labour to make a sort of leather fabric. So I hope that helps determine the answer regarding your furniture leather...and leather questions in general...when I relaunch my blog I will write extensively on the topic...i have been to over 50 tanneries mostly horsehide in 4 countries and had extensive conversations about the tanning process with gentlemen that have been doing this since the 1940s. Its a really beautiful art form as complex as wine making. I hope to share this in the near future.
best
Himel

Thank you for your response!

 

[Marphtwo]

Yeah it's probably a top grain but not a good quality one. That sandwich effect ( dyed on both surfaces but undyed in the center).when looking at the cross section is typical of cheaper leathers. Top grain does have an artificial surface applied as opposed to full grain where the grain surface is natural. Top grain leather doesn't develope patina as it's rather plasticy but the surface is less fragile than full grain.

Thank you too for your reply to my question sir.