Full Grain v. Top Grain

[Superfluous]

Is it not the case that Liberty and Vicenza HH are the same thing, from the same place?

In which case, assuming they are then the most discernible difference for us lot - the consumer - is price. Specifically, a BK jacket is cheaper i think

I am informed that Liberty HH comes from the xxxxxxxxx tannery, and Vincenza comes from a different Italian tannery. I am also informed that Eastman's Warhouse also comes from xxxxxxxxxx.

The foregoing is pure hearsay and I could be mistaken.

Please also keep in mind that all of these tanneries offer multiple different hides and, moreover, will customize hides according to buyer specifications. Therefore, even if two jacket manufacturers purchase from the same tannery, they may purchase different hides, and they may provide different specifications.

Regarding cost, I think BK's jackets cost approximately 740 pounds, which converts to $1,190 USD. Insurrection's Vincenza jackets are $1,300. Therefore, BK's jackets are less.

Lastly, I do not agree that cost is the "most discernible difference." Rather, I believe there is also a discernible difference in the workmanship (I have never handled a BK jacket but, according to the photos I have seen, the workmanship is first rate).

 

[pawineguy]

Thank you Superfluous, and what makes this all so frustrating is what you note above... BK jackets seems to be beautiful and well made, but no one really knows what exactly each company is specifying for their leathers. I read a thread from another of the high end jacket makers who stated that he specs very specifically how Shinki is to treat his hides. Horween, while known for their Chromexcel FQHH, also offers other horsehides. They also state on their website that their Chromexcel is full grain, however I am sure that it's easy enough to purchase top grain produced in the same way, BUT I'M NOT SURE. Pure speculation.

 

[Superfluous]

Thank you Superfluous, and what makes this all so frustrating is what you note above... BK jackets seems to be beautiful and well made, but no one really knows what exactly each company is specifying for their leathers. I read a thread from another of the high end jacket makers who stated that he specs very specifically how Shinki is to treat his hides. Horween, while known for their Chromexcel FQHH, also offers other horsehides. They also state on their website that their Chromexcel is full grain, however I am sure that it's easy enough to purchase top grain produced in the same way, BUT I'M NOT SURE. Pure speculation.

The distinction between full grain and top grain is only one of several different factors that comprise the quality and desirability of leather. As you note, the tanning process is also key. Moreover, not all veg tanning is the same (e.g., veg tanners, like wine makers, use different recipes -- some use mimosa tree bark from Australia in agitation tanks, then cure the hide for close to a year -- others use pre-reduced mixtures -- others do a chrome retan).

Horween Chromexcel FQHH may be full grain, but the jackets I have seen made out of this leather have markedly less character and are far more rigid than I desire. As I said before, its all about the look, feel and drape of the leather. There are full grain leathers that look, feel and drape wonderfully; there are also full grain leathers that look, feel and drape poorly. Likewise, there are top grain leathers that look, feel and drape wonderfully; and vice versa.

 

[bretron]

Like a breath of fresh air, guys! Great discussion sans the heavy aroma of beef

 

[schitzo]

Lastly, I do not agree that cost is the "most discernible difference." Rather, I believe there is also a discernible difference in the workmanship (I have never handled a BK jacket but, according to the photos I have seen, the workmanship is first rate).

I've never handled one either, but indeed, this edited bit could well be true. In which case, they'd be cheaper and better made. Interesting

 

[thor]

There is also that VERY top secret piece of info that no manufacturer will probably ever divulge: profit margin. If maker A, B and C all charge about the same for their premium jackets but source their hides from different tanneries (tannery 1, 2 and 3) and they are produced (sewn) in country X, Y and Z (where pay scale/labor costs can vary significantly), the end profit margin for makers A, B and C could certainly be a factor in what they decide to charge for their jacket and how much profit they feel is sufficient for their business model.

I DO NOT CRITICIZE ANY BUSINESS FOR ATTEMPTING TO MAXIMIZE THEIR PROFIT (so gentlemen please don't misconstrue my comments).

It's just that company B might source better leather (perhaps at a bulk-rate/quantity discount) and base their factory in a country where labor costs are lower and thus be able to sell a better quality leather product at the same or even a lower price then company C (that may be using slightly lesser quality hides but be paying higher labor costs or larger salaries to management employees).

All speculation, of course

 

[thor]

Incidentally, I own A-2's from LW, ELC, Goodwear and BK and love 'em all. Each jacket has it's own unique qualities that I admire and very high quality workmanship that I value as a consumer. I am totally happy with my collection of leather jackets as well as being a big fan of TFL

 

[Superfluous]

^ Good points Thor. Allow me to add an observation that was shared with me yesterday. Certain manufacturers sell exclusively to consumers and have no middlemen -- conversely, other manufacturers sell through agents or retailers. If a manufacturer sells exclusively to consumers, and does not use any retailers/middlemen, there is no wholesale price and no intermediate margin. Conversely, if a manufacturer sells through agents/retailers, the agent/retailer requires a profit margin, separate and distinct from the manufacturer. This intermediate margin obviously affects the "retail" price paid by the consumer to the retailer/agent. Moreover, even if a consumer is able to bypass the agent/retailer and purchase directly from the manufacturer, the manufacturer cannot sell the jackets for less than the retailers -- even though the manufacturer has a lower baseline and the intermediate margin has been eliminated -- because this would undercut the retailers/agents and they would cease offering the product. Therefore, the consumer generally cannot circumvent the wholesale margin. For example, you pay generally the same price for an Aero jacket whether you purchase it from Insurrection or directly from Aero (disregarding currency exchange rates), but Aero's profit margin is far greater if you purchase directly from Aero. Aero cannot discount the jacket if purchase directly from Aero because consumers would stop purchasing from Insurrection and Insurrection would stop carrying the line. Of course, Aero makes much more if you go straight to them. Manufacturers that sell exclusively to consumers, and never use retailers/agents, do not have these considerations, nor the intermediate margin.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Is BK a manufacturer, middle man or something else? Do they make theri own jackets or do they simply design them and then commission them from a manufacturer?

 

[Azog]

Is BK a manufacturer, middle man or something else? Do they make theri own jackets or do they simply design them and then commission them from a manufacturer?

I'm sure I read a post by Platon on VLJ a couple of years ago where he described Bill Kelso as a two man team. He said Andy Falzon makes the jackets and Platon takes a more management type of role. He also said they share the duties with their online presence on the different forums.

Though when Platon was queried about that post recently on VLJ (I think it was by Hoosierdaddy), Platon denied describing Bill Kelso that way.

 

[pawineguy]

The distinction between full grain and top grain is only one of several different factors that comprise the quality and desirability of leather. As you note, the tanning process is also key. Moreover, not all veg tanning is the same (e.g., veg tanners, like wine makers, use different recipes -- some use mimosa tree bark from Australia in agitation tanks, then cure the hide for close to a year -- others use pre-reduced mixtures -- others do a chrome retan).

Horween Chromexcel FQHH may be full grain, but the jackets I have seen made out of this leather have markedly less character and are far more rigid than I desire. As I said before, its all about the look, feel and drape of the leather. There are full grain leathers that look, feel and drape wonderfully; there are also full grain leathers that look, feel and drape poorly. Likewise, there are top grain leathers that look, feel and drape wonderfully; and vice versa.

Yes, and that's what's great about having all of these different options available. (For the record, I own a jacket in Horween FQHH, have another in tumbled FQHH on order, and also have a Vincenza on order) I also wear a super stiff Vanson jacket to ride in, so when I put on a FQHH it feels soft and supple to me, where others would find it rigid.

Here's an interesting fact: Horween makes somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen types of Chromexcel. (I'm a fan of it specifically when it comes to shoes, and probably have 4-5 pairs of Chromexcel shoes/boots from various makers.) From Horween:

***-Aniline Chromexcel WP – the classic, hot stuffed pull-up leather
-Beaufort Chromexcel – the same as the above, but with a different oil/wax blend. Designed to be cementable due to less oil.
-Wooly Chromexcel – receives a different stuffing blend with a heavy addition of wool grease (lanolin)
-Plainsman Chromexcel – A duller version with a more pronounced grain character
-Kudu Chromexcel – Plainsman that has been hand-curried (oiled by hand)
-Cavalier Chromexcel – Similar to Beaufort, with a lighter colored base tannage, allowing us to produce brighter colors.
-Huntsman – a.k.a. Waxed Flesh, this version is finished on the flesh side, give it a slicked-down-suede look
-Casual Chromexcel – A mellow (softer) version with less pull-up
-Stampede Chromexcel – Chromexcel with a matte, nubuck finish
-Marine Field Shoe – A natural, flesh out version tanned for the use in boots during WWII (North African Theater)
-Natural M’s Chromexcel – A heavy, mechanical leather used for oil seals
-Glace Chromexcel – A version with a high gloss finish
-Vintage Chromexcel – softer with a slightly pre-aged look
Just about all of the above can be run on either cowhide or horsehide.***

I note this not as an ad for Chromexcel, but just to add to the discussion, as we talk generically about many of these products, but there is a tremendous amount of variation within just this one type of leather. We rely on jacket producers to wade through the options and narrow the choices down for us, but even then, there is no "one size fits all." I have a full grain motorcycle jacket that's sort of my beater, cost $400, and NO ONE would suggest that it's better than the top-grain Vanson.

 

[rocketeer]

First time I have seen this post.
As a jacket wearer rather than collector, I only ever collected really old jackets as in original WWII era A2s and 1950s, during my 30 + years of collecting/wearing, I have to say there appears to be 'Too much information' as they say.
My first leather jacket was a biker jacket bought in the 1970s I did not know anything about grains, horse, goat, front quarter etc. A jacket was a jacket but if they looked rubbish I simply did not buy it. Then I moved on to more bike jackets and started to collect aviation G1s and A2s plus 1950s stuff, it looked(and was) much better than most of what was commercially available to the extent I would now be a little more fussy about my jackets looking for items made from horse or goat mainly.
There were almost no reproduction jackets made in the UK at this time so my first introduction to Front Quarter Horse was through items made by Aero, whom I had already had dealings with for old jackets. I suppose I am slightly biased towards Aero but have been wearing their designs for many years now. I dont like all the designs they produce but do love the quality of construction and materials used, but other than Front Quarter Horse(or steer) I havent the faintest idea whether it is chrome tanned or veg, full grain or what. All I do know is I love em all and would buy another tomorrow if I had the £££.
So, were I to buy something else from a different manufacturer, I would hope they may send samples, if not I would ask basic questions on here such as , 'What leather do this company or that use and what is the quality like'. Hopefully I would get a not too baffling reply.
Well That is just me, seeya, J.

 

[nick123]

I think it's wise to understand what you have and the basic differences-be it vegetable, chrome, combination, naked, etc etc for the sake of preservation. They say a chromexcel tanned jacket can go for a long time without needing a leather conditioner, wheras in some cases, you'd probably want to pay a little more attention to a vegetable tanned jacket, treating it a little more frequently.

 

[rocketeer]

I think it's wise to understand what you have and the basic differences-be it vegetable, chrome, combination, naked, etc etc for the sake of preservation. They say a chromexcel tanned jacket can go for a long time without needing a leather conditioner, wheras in some cases, you'd probably want to pay a little more attention to a vegetable tanned jacket, treating it a little more frequently.

I know I am not alone but are there many on here who have kept a jacket 30+ years and just slapped some conditioner on it every now and then? I had my Aero(Battersea Contract) 30 years and just oiled it up once a year then did not bother( cannot remember the last time), it never went stiff. My original WWII A2 I would treat once every 2 years with good old Ko Cho Line, still have that one but I have no clue whether either were chrome or veg and they are both still in great condition.
In the last 12 years I have acquired a Barnstormer, a Teamster and two Highwayman jackets but I wont be slapping on the oils just yet.
J

 

[Marphtwo]

Help me out guys. I am about to buy a leather couch from a big store retailer that has been know to sell bonded leather. Ivery learned my lesson there.

This couch in question however is purported to be top grain leather. Can you help me verify it is really top grain?

What I observed:
1. No hair follicle holes (see attached) but the grain looks real and random enough from top grain. Maybe it's painted?
2. It does smell like leather
3. I found a way to see the back and it feels like suede but it's black. (See attached)

Please let me know what you think

 

[ton312]

This thread has my head spinning. Granted I'm reading it post a few Lagunitas but damn...there's a lot going on here.

 

[handymike]

Too much!

 

[Marphtwo]

I am hoping @andyfalzon can chime in as he seems quite knowledgeable.

 

[handymike]

He's no longer around, but you can read his posts on the Bill Kelso Mfg. Facebook page.
David Himel has some opinions on this topic too. Basically, each maker chooses their raw materials. When you order a jacket they will send you samples which you can handle, run under hot water, sand, etc. Then you pick the one you like best. Some folks offer many leathers, and I recommend looking at them all to make an informed choice.

 

[Superfluous]

Basically, each maker chooses their raw materials. When you order a jacket they will send you samples which you can handle, run under hot water, sand, etc. Then you pick the one you like best. Some folks offer many leathers, and I recommend looking at them all to make an informed choice.

Don't be getting all reasonable here . . . there is still plenty of fight left in this thread!