Full Grain v. Top Grain

[Superfluous]

Andy of BK wrote the following to me last week:

“Victory horse leather is full grain (i.e. first quality) while Shinki is top grain (second quality) so by definition only Victory horse is better as it belongs to higher category and sold for higher price.”

I have read articles suggesting that “full grain” leather is different from, and superior/preferable to, “top grain” leather. On the other hand, several of the jacket manufacturers most respected by the members of this forum use Shinki leather and/or “top grain” leather. Himel expressly states that his Shinki jackets are “top grain” – I could not find any indication whether the Shinki leather used by Goodwear, Freewheeler, Real McCoys or Rainbow Country is “top” or “full” grain.

Then, I found the following industry definition: http://www.leatherusa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3286

“Full Grain leather is defined by Leather Industries of America (LIA) and the American leather manufacturing industry that it represents as: ‘The grain split of a hide from which nothing has been removed except the hair and associated epidermis.’ . . . The above definition is consistent with the official definition promulgated by the International Council of Tanners (ICT), the International Union of Leather Technologists and Chemists Societies (IULTCS), and the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) which is as follows: ‘Leather bearing the original grain surface as exposed by removal of the epidermis and with none of the surface removed by buffing, snuffing or splitting.’ Top Grain leather is the same as full grain leather.” (Emphasis added).

The foregoing industry definition that “top grain leather is the same as full grain leather” is different than many other articles I have read, which distinguish “full grain” from “top grain.” Perhaps some leather/jacket manufacturers consider full and top grain the same and/or use the terms interchangeably (e.g., Shinki/Himel) – consistent with the industry definition – but other leather/jacket manufacturers consider the grains to be different (e.g., BK).

1. Is there a genuine difference between “full” and “top” grain?

2. Are certain leather/jacket manufacturers using the terms interchangeably, such that the leather they describe as “top” grain is actually/also “full” grain?

3. Do we, as jacket consumers, care whether our leather is “full” grain or “top” grain?

JC: Your comments regarding veg v. chrome tanning were incredible insightful and educational. I hope you will share your wisdom on this topic.

 

[pipvh]

op2:

 

[Tomasso]

op2:

 

[devilish]

Oh Boy! Anyways, all I know is, as a consumer, I love my Shinki hide jacket and think that the leather is pretty hard to beat. I've seen (in person) quite a few other jackets made from it and have nothing but praise for it. In the interest of balance, I have no personal experience with Victory Hide and if it is indeed better than Shinki it must be pretty damn good.

 

[hpalapdog]

Top grain leather is cheaper. Some surface imperfections have been buffed or sanded out. It's still a premium leather though.
An aniline finish in particular, shows imperfections up, so a full grain hide is typically used for high end products.

Leather is graded. The sort of striations or jerky sections that are popular in vintage inspired jacket making come from hides that aren't grade 1.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Some of the nicest jackets made were not full grain and were chrome tanned; jackets by Buco, Brimaco and Brooks. Many of them are still being worn 40-60 years on.

 

[Superfluous]

Oh Boy! Anyways, all I know is, as a consumer, I love my Shinki hide jacket and think that the leather is pretty hard to beat. I've seen (in person) quite a few other jackets made from it and have nothing but praise for it. In the interest of balance, I have no personal experience with Victory Hide and if it is indeed better than Shinki it must be pretty damn good.

Amen brutha! IMHO, it speaks volumes that some many highly respected manufacturers use Shinki. That said, Shinki obviously has not cornered the market on quality HH, and Victory, Liberty, Warhorse and Horween HHs, among others, are also outstanding.

Top grain leather is cheaper. Some surface imperfections have been buffed or sanded out. It's still a premium leather though.

That assumes "top"grain and "full" grain are in fact different. According to the industry definition quoted above, they are the same. Perhaps this is an issue of semantics? Perhaps some leather manufacturers -- e.g., Shinki -- do not distinguish between "full" grain and "top" grain and/or use the terms interchangeably, just as the industry definition says they are the same; but other manufacturers distinguish between the two. Perhaps some "top" grain is the same as "full" grain, and other "top" grain is different from "full" grain"? Otherwise, how does one reconcile the industry definition which expressly states that they are the same? I would be interested to know if Shinki offers both "top" grain and "full" grain, with "top" grain being less expensive.

An aniline finish in particular, shows imperfections up, so a full grain hide is typically used for high end products.

Interesting that you bring up aniline finishing, as I was going to address this in my original post. Many articles state that an aniline finish is reserved for "full" grain leather for the reason you stated, among others. However, I note that some/all of the Shinki used by Goodwear, Himel, Real McCoys, Rainbow Country and Freewheelers is aniline finished. Is Shinki using analine finishing for lessor quality "top" grain -- that is arguably inconsistent, as it would expose the imperfections. On the other hand, if Shini's "top" grain is the same as "full" grain -- consistent with the industry definition -- the aniline finish makes perfect sense.

Some of the nicest jackets made were not full grain and were chrome tanned; jackets by Buco, Brimaco and Brooks. Many of them are still being worn 40-60 years on.

Thus suggesting that the distinction between "full" and "top" grain is, for all practical purposes, immaterial. Of course, many of the esoteric details employed by the best jacket manufacturers have little little practical importance for the vast majority of owners.

 

[andyfalzon]

Since my name is mentioned here, I will try to answer this.

Ever questioned why you want to buy leather instead of pleather (artificial leather)?
Because real leather is natural. Here you go. So, inevitably, the more natural it is, the better quality it is considered and therefore the more valuable. There should be no arguing here. Quality and value (and price) go hand in hand.

There is usually some confusion, either deliberate or otherwise created by those who have reasons to describe them all as full grain or as top grain. There are of course authoritative definitions that clearly define the difference between full grain and top grain because it used to be the subject of a debate long time ago.

Full grain and top grain are definitely not the same thing. It would not make sense to have 2 names for the same thing, (unless you seek to confuse the customers). Both types of leather may be equally good for the same purpose. For example, you can make a good jacket with either one. That jacket that would have the same durability, but should definitely not have the same value/price.

Both types of leather are provided from the same animals. The same animal may even produce a full grain piece of skin and a piece of top grain skin depending on circumstances (e.g. it was hurt on a barbwire fence on one side only). When the tanneries make their selection, they pick the best skins, the ones with minimal imperfections, put them aside and call them "full grain" because it will not be necessary to alter their grain texture in any way. The second quality leathers, the ones with markings and imperfections are then selected and called "top grain". To be sold, first they need to treat them.

So, top grain leather is a leather that had part or all of its grain removed because its surface quality was such that it would otherwise not be presentable. It is well known that each animal has a different kind of grain, but when dealing with top grain leathers, it's not possible to tell because the grain is gone and they all look the same. (Which explains how you can be cheated to buy steerhide for horsehide).

So, if one knows about leathers it's easy to distinguish which one is which by looking at the grain. Here comes the difficult part. What is and what is not grain. I will not go that far in this analysis. It is the subject of another discussion.

I will show you though a pictorial how to tell whether your leather is top grain. Please note this test is not panacea.

Horween top grain horsehide on the left, Victory horsehide (smooth) on the right.

They look about the same from a distance.

Let's pick one up, the Horween

See the little holes (black dots) visible on the surface? They are the base of the hair follicles.
They indicate that enough amount of the top layer of the surface has been removed to reach them.

Now let's flip the Victory to see the underside.

What do we see? Let's get closer.

It's the dots again. You will note they don't appear everywhere, just on a small area which is thinned from the back side.

Let's pick it up.

See how far the hair follicle goes?


Another image.

Now let's hold the Victory in the same way we held the top grain leather before

See? No hair follicles. This leather if Full Grain.

But do not be fooled that a leather you are holding is full grain because you don't see any hair follicles.
It could be a pigment finish. Pigment dyes cover the surface of the leather completely and make the follicles disappear.


The respected manufacturers all use Shinki and Howreen for 3 reasons.
1) Because that's what's available at their price range and its good enough quality.
2) Because full grain is harder to find and more expensive (and there is no necessity to use it if no one understands the difference).
3) Because traditionally the garment industry used top grain leather. Top grain is good enough for jackets.
Full Grain is something extra. Full grain is normally reserved for more expensive applications (high end products).
Like that leather sofa that costs $60,000 and that jacket that cost $4,500 and you thought they were selling you brand name.
Yes, 50% (or whatever) of the price accounts for the brand name and the other 50% for the quality of the leather you buy.


Finally, aniline finish can be applied on top grain leather because when the grain is removed the leather is free from imperfections.

 

[hpalapdog]

Superfluous-both full grain and top grain leather can have the hair follicle pores visible. In other words they are not splits, or embossed leathers. Full grain is produced from a pelt with less natural imperfections, animal bites, nicks, etc. and of a uniform thickness. Such a hide is obviously more expensive. There is not much more to be said other than get hold of some tannery price lists.

 

[Monitor]

...and for the first time ever in God knows how long I've been searching for a concrete answer to this question, I now know the difference between full grain and top grain leather. Thank you very much, Andy, I really appreciate this!

 

[andyfalzon]

Superfluous-both full grain and top grain leather have the hair follicle pores visible. In other words they are not splits, or embossed leathers. Full grain is produced from a pelt with less natural imperfections, animal bites, nicks, etc. and of a uniform thickness. Such a hide is obviously more expensive. There is not much more to be said other than get hold of some tannery price lists.

You must try VERY hard to see the hair follicles of full grain leather and you will not see them. The reason is that the diameter of the hair follicle on its top side is extremely small. (I can send you a piece of leather to see for yourself).
As you go down the hair shaft the follicle becomes bigger towards the root of the hair. That's what you see in the top grain leathers. The cross-section of the roots.

 

[hpalapdog]

Since my name is mentioned here, I will try to answer this.

Andy, you mentioned in the veg v chrome tanning thread that you had a method of telling them apart. The mods , in their wisdom, deleted it because it appeared to contradict something John Chapman said.
I wonder if you could repost a modified version as I, like others, never got the chance to read it ? Thanks.

 

[andyfalzon]

Yes, I will post it later and will show also a pictorial to illustrate it.

 

[Superfluous]

Thank you for your comprehensive post Andy.

I continue to disagree with your argument that, because something costs more, it is necessarily and definitely superior. Respectfully, there are countless examples demonstrating otherwise.

You do not address the industry definition which equates full and top grain.

I found the following statement from your post most interesting:

The respected manufacturers all use Shinki and Howreen for 3 reasons.
1) Because that's what's available at their price range and its good enough quality.
2) Because full grain is harder to find and more expensive (and there is no necessity to use it if no one understands the difference).
3) Because traditionally the garment industry used top grain leather. Top grain is good enough for jackets.
Full Grain is something extra.

You are obviously implying, if not outright stating, that Goodwear, RealMcCoys, Himel, Freewheelers and Rainbow Country use Shinki HH because it is cheaper than other available leathers ("because that's what's available at their price range" and "full grain . . . [is] more expensive"). Let me state upfront that I have never seen pricing for Shinki HH, nor compared the pricing to other HHs. That said, I have been told that Shinki is, comparatively speaking, considerably more expensive than most other HHs, and among the most expensive HHs available. Therefore, your suggestion that John Chapman, David Himel, RMC, Freewheelers and Rainbow Country selected Shinki "because that's what's available at their price range," and because other leathers are "more expensive," is not consistent with my admittedly limited knowledge of HH pricing (and I fully concede that you are more knowledgeable than I).

Separately, John Chapman, David Himel, RMC and Freewheelers have never struck me as manufacturers who cut corners and incorporate inferior materials in order to save a buck. To the contrary, as has been documented by numerous sources, including the recent interview of JC, John Chapman, David Himel, RMC and Freewheelers are all perfectionists that strive to incorporate the finest available materials into their jackets. Frankly, I suspect these manufacturers would be less than pleased to read your assertion that they selected Shinki simply "because that's what's available at their price range," and because other leathers are "more expensive."

Does anyone happen to know the pricing for Shinki vs. Victory/Liberty/Warhorse?

 

[Superfluous]

Superfluous-both full grain and top grain leather can have the hair follicle pores visible. In other words they are not splits, or embossed leathers. Full grain is produced from a pelt with less natural imperfections, animal bites, nicks, etc. and of a uniform thickness. Such a hide is obviously more expensive.

I have been told that Shinki HH is made from horses from Poland precisely because they have "less natural imperfections, animal bites, nicks, etc."

 

[hpalapdog]

You must try VERY hard to see the hair follicles of full grain leather and you will not see them. The reason is that the diameter of the hair follicle on its top side is extremely small. (I can send you a piece of leather to see for yourself).
As you go down the hair shaft the follicle becomes bigger towards the root of the hair. That's what you see in the top grain leathers. The cross-section of the roots.

I normally use a loupe. I agree my Alexander Roadster is top grain leather because the pores are in places clearly visible to the naked eye IE. some manipulation has gone on. Hardly surprising on a jacket that cost me £300 new. According to AL this is east European horse veg tanned in the UK. It's different to the Italian tanned horse on my YMC B3

 

[andyfalzon]

Thanks for your nice reply.

1) Because that's what's available at their price range and its good enough quality.

First let me say that the above is a general statement that applies to the garment industry. Not particularly to the makers you mentioned.

I can tell you exactly how much Shinki costs because we had an option to buy from them. I can tell you also that Shinki is more expensive than full grain leather that can be bought in Europe. But this applies to almost every item that is made in Japan. It is more costly than its European counterpart and that's why Tokyo and Japan is (or was) one of the most expensive places to live.

So when you buy leather from Japan, you pay for its quality as a raw material, you pay for the quality of tanning and you pay also the mark up of buying from Japan.

That said, I must also point out that there is difference in the price (as well as in the appearance) between same quality (in this case full grain leathers). So, this means to say that there is full grain and there is FULL GRAIN. The Victory is the most expensive full grain leather we have ever seen with considerable difference in the price from the second best. I firmly believe that if the Japanese were able to source Victory horse they would sell it even more higher.

Now if my memory serves me correctly, I have seen Shinki top grain and full grain, but I 'd have to go through our samples stock to tell you for sure.

I am certain that the manufacturers you mention do not try to cut corners (with the exception of saying that combi-tan is better than veg tan).
I am sure that if they were able to source a fine full grain leather they would use it, but they would have to adjust their prices accordingly because they 'd buy it at higher prices. That could be a dilemma for many of them of course. They would have to think, for example, why bother since the competition uses top grain, and of course, they would have to think about where their prices could go, since they have already reached the ceiling so to say.

 

[hpalapdog]

I have been told that Shinki HH is made from horses from Poland precisely because they have "less natural imperfections, animal bites, nicks, etc."

No barb wire.

Italy is the home of the largest high quality tanning industry.

I spent over a year living in Japan. Everything apart from cars is expensive and I dare say that applies to small family run tanneries too.

Having visited a UK tannery in the UK a while back, and learned a few things. I was surprised how little most jacket makers actually know about leather. It took Eastman 20 years to find what they wanted ,when if they had gone to leather trade shows on the continent, it was available all along !

 

[BuzzTheTower]

Gents,

There is good leather, great leather, and OK leather that no one is really enthusiastic about. I use Shinki, and have also been in contact with companies in Italy that make great horsehide. Several. The Italian hides from several companies cost more per square foot than Shinki, and some are about the same.

Leather seems to be going up and up and up. I've gone to two leather trade shows in Bologna, and the prices have steadily gone up since the first one in 2010.

I am not the smartest person when it comes to leather. When I look at Shinki's hides, some of them have much more grain than others. Yes, some are a bit smooth, and some are super grainy. I always ask that they not hot-roll press the hides, but instead, they put the skins (usually 3-4 at a time) on a stake machine - a huge long pole of wood that shakes up and down about three feet for a few minutes. This gives the hides a bit of a softer feel and more pronounced grain.

By default, Shinki usually pressed their hides flat with a hot roller. It's a huge device, and it makes the skins more flat than they would be naturally. The Japanese market seems to prefer flatter, less grainy hides for new garments, and Shinki gives those customers what they want. Look through images of Real McCoys or other Shinki-sourced horsehide jackets, and you'll see what I mean. I ask that Shinki not do this, so my hides tend to have more grain. Shinki processes about 3,000 horses worth of hides per month, so my specific directions to them are but a fraction of a fraction of what they produce. Most of it is flattened to smooth out grain.

As to them being full grain or top grain, I will ask Shinki. I've never had a problem with their hides, as compared with WWII A-2 jackets. I've strived to make copies that are almost identical to WWII jackets, with the exception of the blatant flaws in stitching and cutting we see in originals. So, the Shinki hides have served me very well in this regard.

If people feel that the best of the best full grain hides are better than what Shinki offers, then that choice is easy to make with the customers decision on what they buy. I am only one vendor among many who offer these types of goods. I don't have the luxury of telling people what they want, nor the luxury of flying to every tannery I've ever found and ensuring they make me perfect hides every time.

This is a typical pocket of a GW jacket after three months of good solid wearing. Though it may not be perfect, I am happy with it.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/Acme18775_After_3Months/

Here's another Shinki jacket after one year of constant wear...

http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/Werber_After_1_Year/

I am in talks with other tanneries, but haven't set up a rock solid supply chain with them yet. It takes a lot of work and testing to ensure you get what you want, and some people would say the process is glacial in how slowly it happens. But, I'm not rich enough to buy thousands of feet of leather to see if I like it all, and it is a bit easy to work with what I know does well.

HPALapdog - it's a bit unfair to say that the thread was closed because someone contradicted my knowledge. The owners of TFL offered me an affiliate thread, which I declined, and I would imagine they aren't particularly happy with me for that. Do you think they're now closing threads because someone doesn't agree with me? Are you sure?

I'm more afraid that this thread will be closed because I sound like a commercial than because someone doesn't agree with me. TFL tries to keep the commercial spam to a minimum.

And you mentioned that you had a G&F M-422s with crisp, thinner leather that you were sure was veg-tanned. I have a rack full of vintage Navy jackets, all of which are made with dense, stiff goatskin. All are well-worn, and range from 1940-1955, and they're all stiff, except the beaten down Monarch M-422 that I have, which is soaked in conditioner from the last owner. I have owned several literally brand new Navy jackets, one from the box, and it was very soft, as were all the others. I had a brand new Werber 7823 G-1...totally butter soft. I just sold a Werber G-1 that was in rough, used, but wearable condition, and it was stiff, hard, and felt like veg-tanned leather. I think goatskin ages and can get stiff, especially if it's 70 years old. Look at the photos of Navy jackets in the blog "Naval Pilot Overseas" and you'll see what they jackets draped like when new. Tey were comfortable and looked relatively soft, not stiff and flat. I don't think veg-tanned goatskin was commonly used in WWII and certainly not after. Brand new jackets out of the box and jackets that were severely used can have some very interesting differences...even if it "looks new", but left its box in 1943.

Just the same, I'm not an expert, and don't claim to know more than other people. I do have the luxury of seeing documentation, and the luxury of handling a few originals that have exhibited many different traits. That's all I can offer.

A customer will look at jackets, and the samples from vendors, and decide what they like best. We have so many choices today, and the ability to make the choices easier by giving people samples, photos, and descriptions. I hope that we're all glad that it's not like 1970, when the choices were little and people were more likely to break down originals than get solid copies.

Thanks,
John

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Another good post JC. A breath of fresh air when needed. Thanks for taking the time to post.
HD