From The Mail: SS Uniforms Cause Stir at Dambusters Event.

[Two Types]

The greatest ever uniform (the influence of which was felt the world over) is the Royal Navy uniform - complete with wide trousers, Trafalgar collar and white cap (complete with cap tally). A crazily impractical uniform in the modern age but it just looks fantastic.

It was much more influential than SS dress uniforms - just look at so many navys around the world: USA, France, Russia, China, Germany etc.

(this has just reminded me of the alleged radio conversation between a US warship and a Royal Navy ship -
US Sailor to British Sailor: 'What's it like to be part of the second largest navy in the world?'
British sailor to US sailor: 'What's it like to be part of the second best navy in the world?')

 

[Edward]

You know what that Brit should have said? "The pressure is immense... I don't know how the Russians cope."

 

[esteban68]

Not sure it was/is so much the Black uniform per se but all of the uniform patches, badges, medal ribbons go extremely well with the black background, the Germans liking for badges for achievements etc surpased any other nation...I also think it's all a bit more naive than we think because as a male child who didn't want to be the baddie? being 'evil' was far more fun especially as we/you at a young age are far from aware of the real implications of the uniform it's political connotations and some of it's original wearers mis deeds.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

as a male child who didn't want to be the baddie? being 'evil' was far more fun especially as we/you at a young age are far from aware of the real implications of the uniform it's political connotations and some of it's original wearers mis deeds.

Yes, this is understandable but still wrong. These boys need to grow up. There are still holocaust survivors and they surely don't think it is the same as a Darth Vader costume.
Is it Reenactment or LARP or Halloween?

Very much like Edward wrote:

The notion that the true horror of it all, and the true reasons why the war was fought, might disappear into a puff of nonsensical fancy dress and jingoism is truly disturbing.

...

I often hear Reenactors defend their hobby with some educational background. You know, "Feel and see how it really was back then". I say it is impossible.

I I can't count the number of times I've seen it done (with fake limbs of course, but they're not using live ammo, either, are they?).

Ok, about the amputations but you left out the other stuff. Would you display the camps, rape or excecutions? Oh really?

I don't want to cover up the evil past of nazi germany but I also don't want to revive it. Learn about it. Read books about it. Never forget what happened! But don't use it as a cheap "villain" costume and then pretend it is was for some kind of higher purpose.

I also just heard reenactment events are bound to a certain "place". If so why would someone say that an event in the UK is incomplete if they leave out the germans?
On the other hand I don't think the people in poland would be happy if the SS woudl march in once again. (Just like in germany Swastikas and SS uniforms are forbidden there...for a reason)

I personally think this is somewhat trivial; we have more important matters to worry about than whether or not people should be allowed to wear SS uniforms at WWII reenactment events. There are much more important things happening in the world...
Reenactment events all together, despite how much I'd like being apart of one, are in bad taste. Let's reenact death, and then go home and watch TV and fill our stomachs with as much food as we please, then go to sleep in our warm, comfy beds. We know we're going to be safe, we don't have to worry about what's going to happen to our families if we don't come back; stew in constant, miserable curiosity as to whether or not you're going to win or lose.

Very well said. :eusa_clap

 

[Two Types]

On the subject of SS re-enacting:

In an earlier post I mentioned a group of German SS re-enactors whose antics offended me at a UK event. I susequently heard that the same group were camping at the show. There were complaints about their pyjamas: replicas of striped concentration camp inmates uniforms. That isn't re-enacting, it isn't fun, it certainly isn't 'living history'. It is just offensive.

With that group, there was no 'grey area' between their private thoughts and their role as re-enactors. They were just Nazis, in thought and in deed. I can't stop them from holding those views but I don't want to be anywhere near them.

 

[Edward]

Actually, there's a huge difference there. The SS was in WW2, like it or not.
The Klan, however, didn't even exist until after the US Civil War was over... :eusa_doh:

Oops, yes - my historical howler. A few years out.

Mind you, by the same "they were there" token, in the context of this specific event in Haworth the SS have no place, being as it is supposed to be a British Home Front affair, as I understand it (of course, that could be applied to all Axis uniforms in the context of this event). I do wonder if it's different in the US - I've certainly heard plenty of anecdotes of people turning up with their kids dressed as Hitler Youth at events, which would be considered utterly, utterly unacceptable over here. Cultural difference could be a big part of it; the home front over here really was a front and the threat of invasion very real at one point for the Brits, and a long reality for much of Europe, so I can certainly see why they might take a dimmer view of these things. I'm not sure what the US equivalent would be... showing up at a Pearl Harbour event dressed as a Kamikaze pilot, maybe, or a Japanese POW camp guard?

The greatest ever uniform (the influence of which was felt the world over) is the Royal Navy uniform - complete with wide trousers, Trafalgar collar and white cap (complete with cap tally). A crazily impractical uniform in the modern age but it just looks fantastic.

Was that the one with the flares? I could never figure out what eedjit thought those were a good idea onboard ship!

Not sure it was/is so much the Black uniform per se but all of the uniform patches, badges, medal ribbons go extremely well with the black background, the Germans liking for badges for achievements etc surpased any other nation...

They had nothing on the Pearly Kings of North Korea!

I also think it's all a bit more naive than we think because as a male child who didn't want to be the baddie? being 'evil' was far more fun especially as we/you at a young age are far from aware of the real implications of the uniform it's political connotations and some of it's original wearers mis deeds.

There's also a lot of ignorance around, I think, as to the nature of various organisations. Many folks today don't know the difference between the Nazi party, the Wehrmacht, the SS, the Gestapo.... and think they're dressed up as "a Nazi soldier" in a leather trenchcoat and a black uniform with the Nazi arm band. And it's certainly true that most people who turn up in a uniform at these of events aren't necessarily part of an organised re-enactment group of any sort, and to the it really only is a cowboys and indians costume. That, in my opinion, is a much bigger problem than isolated cases of Nazi sympathisers at these things. The more that dreadful period of human history is trivialised, and this goes way beyond playing dress-up SS, the less humanity will learn its lessons. There has to be a fine line, and I'm not opposed to all re-enactment (and in that context I'm actually rather pro both representation of the Axis powers and an honest portrayal of the Allies), nor am I opposed to humour about the period (I always had a soft spot for Allo Allo). There is, however, something horrendously offensive about somebody running about in an SS uniform 'for a laugh'. I'd take an equally dim view of somebody gadding about Dresden in an RAF uniform and shouting about bombs as well, for what it's worth.

On the subject of SS re-enacting:

In an earlier post I mentioned a group of German SS re-enactors whose antics offended me at a UK event. I susequently heard that the same group were camping at the show. There were complaints about their pyjamas: replicas of striped concentration camp inmates uniforms. That isn't re-enacting, it isn't fun, it certainly isn't 'living history'. It is just offensive.

With that group, there was no 'grey area' between their private thoughts and their role as re-enactors. They were just Nazis, in thought and in deed. I can't stop them from holding those views but I don't want to be anywhere near them.

And these guys were actually German? Jinkies. Rather ironic that in the UK, where WW2 is still celebrated as the Great Victory over Nazism and Fascism that this particular group were free to behave in that manner - behaviour which would land them in prison in their native country.

 

[Rudie]

Yikes, they look like Christmas trees. Just stick some candles in their ears.

 

[Fastuni]

For accuracy's sake... these North Korean Generals were photoshopped...

The original is not less ridiculous:

States run by Communist parties are unrivaled in "achievement" medals, badges and ribbons for almost anything. The USSR and GDR were also very good at this.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

No, those are cookies in case Great Eater gets hungry.
Gotta love North Korean uniforms. It looks like an alternate reality 1970s Soviet Union.

And these guys were actually German? Jinkies. Rather ironic that in the UK, where WW2 is still celebrated as the Great Victory over Nazism and Fascism that this particular group were free to behave in that manner - behaviour which would land them in prison in their native country.

The Price of Freedom
Which, sad to say, includes the "right" to behave in a manner offensive to the very people who fought and died for it. Or to put it less delicately: Unfortunately, being an A-hole is not a crime.

 

[Rudie]

Or to put it less delicately: Unfortunately, being an A-hole is not a crime.

Well, in Germany it is. At least in that respect.

 

[Capesofwrath]

The Price of Freedom
Which, sad to say, includes the "right" to behave in a manner offensive to the very people who fought and died for it. Or to put it less delicately: Unfortunately, being an A-hole is not a crime.

I spent my entire teen years being told by my father that he had fought and died for people like me.

 

[Rudie]

How many lives does he have?

 

[alsendk]

How many lives does he have?

We have not been there yet Rudie....there might be a pleasant surprise waiting for us at Kingdom come

 

[p51]

I do wonder if it's different in the US - I've certainly heard plenty of anecdotes of people turning up with their kids dressed as Hitler Youth at events, which would be considered utterly, utterly unacceptable over here.

You are quite right about that. And yes, I have seen Hitlerjungend kids at several events in the US over the years.
As the staff cartoonist for a now-defunct magazine for WW2 re-enactors*, I had to be mindful of that every time I came up with something new. All my cartoons were making fun of the re-enactors themselves and I had done re-enacting cartoons in the US where so much more was tolerated and considered, 'funny.' The sense of humor in the UK/EU re-enacting community was so subdued it was difficult to write anything that could be considered funny at all as the editor didn't want anything that could possibly be considered offensive at all. Friends of mine in the hobby who read the magazine here in the US often e-mailed or called me, asking where my sense of humor went, as my UK cartoons were nothing like my US ones...
Now, all that said, I think in the US we have a much more tolerant concept or portraying history. Slavery IS addressed at Civil War events. I've seen plenty of people portraying slaves at these events over the years, to show a more balanced view.
And YES, I have seen someone portraying a Japanese soldier at Pearl Harbor, on Ford Island, ob December 7th of one year. The Pearl Harbor vets all wanted their photo taken with the guy!

*Click here to see those cartoons that got printed...

 

[Rudie]

We have not been there yet Rudie....there might be a pleasant surprise waiting for us at Kingdom come

How do you know? We might all suffer from amnesia while in human form.

 

[alsendk]

How do you know? We might all suffer from amnesia while in human form.

Like one of my older jazz music colleagues told me: now I have retired, and have to live on my memories, and now I can`t remember S***

 

[1961MJS]

For accuracy's sake... these North Korean Generals were photoshopped...

The original is not less ridiculous:

States run by Communist parties are unrivaled in "achievement" medals, badges and ribbons for almost anything. The USSR and GDR were also very good at this.

Not an SS comment, but um, North Korea's only war has been in a "Truce" for roughly 60 years. Those Generals wearing the 5 pounds of medals are probably younger than 70 (probably about 50 actually). They must give the big Medals for writing a report with a black pen and a different big Medal for writing a report with a blue pen. Either that, or their boy scout merit badges are metal.

Later

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Not an SS comment, but um, North Korea's only war has been in a "Truce" for roughly 60 years. Those Generals wearing the 5 pounds of medals are probably younger than 70 (probably about 50 actually). They must give the big Medals for writing a report with a black pen and a different big Medal for writing a report with a blue pen. Either that, or their boy scout merit badges are metal.

Later

I often find these bits from North Korean television rather entertaining. Like I said, it's like being timewarped to the Soviet Union in the '70s.

[video=youtube;rA1LFD6xfi4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA1LFD6xfi4[/video]

 

[Capesofwrath]

How many lives does he have?

None. The RN gave him a very nice send off from the deck of a destroyer off Portsmouth twenty five years ago.

 

[Edward]

For accuracy's sake... these North Korean Generals were photoshopped...

The original is not less ridiculous:

Oops, I didn't realise that.... mind you, you're not wrong about the original.

Gotta love North Korean uniforms. It looks like an alternate reality 1970s Soviet Union.

Maybe some form of armour? It does have a feel of an earlier period about it. I'd love to get a trip into North Korea to see first hand that sort of State. I was in Romania, post revolution, in January 1992 when it was all still very Soviet, but everywhere else I've been, including China, has moved on a lot since then. (While still a very different political culture, of course, day to day life in big cities China looks very different than we often imagine in the West). What I'd really love too would be to see their interpretation of the West. I find one learns a tremendous amount about one's own culture from those outside it, in all ways.

The Price of Freedom
Which, sad to say, includes the "right" to behave in a manner offensive to the very people who fought and died for it. Or to put it less delicately: Unfortunately, being an A-hole is not a crime.

Well, there is that. I'm all for free expression (of course, I'm equally for the right of private spaces to curtail it!)

You are quite right about that. And yes, I have seen Hitlerjungend kids at several events in the US over the years.
As the staff cartoonist for a now-defunct magazine for WW2 re-enactors*, I had to be mindful of that every time I came up with something new. All my cartoons were making fun of the re-enactors themselves and I had done re-enacting cartoons in the US where so much more was tolerated and considered, 'funny.' The sense of humor in the UK/EU re-enacting community was so subdued it was difficult to write anything that could be considered funny at all as the editor didn't want anything that could possibly be considered offensive at all. Friends of mine in the hobby who read the magazine here in the US often e-mailed or called me, asking where my sense of humor went, as my UK cartoons were nothing like my US ones...

I like those. This one http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/willysmb44/REcolor4.jpg is my favourite. Humans are humans are humans, frankly.... The more I read / see / experience about re-enactors, or jacket collectors, or Trekkies, or Rocky Horror devotees, or whatever you have, the more I realise it's all the same - only the "costumes" change. lol

Now, all that said, I think in the US we have a much more tolerant concept or portraying history. Slavery IS addressed at Civil War events. I've seen plenty of people portraying slaves at these events over the years, to show a more balanced view.

I'm not sure tolerant is the word I'd use, but it's certainly a different attitude. The ACW scene is quite big here in the UK too, I know a few folks involved. I've been vaguely intrigued by it since I saw a tv documentary very late on night years ago, about a group of real hardcore who were spending the week before a Gettysberg(?) battle reenactment hiking the route the Union unit they represented would have hiked, with the same equipment, and carting along Confederate "prisoners" - all very deep in character. Fascinating exercise. Bit odd if it's only "playing soldier", but if it can help educate about "war, and the pity of war", well...

And YES, I have seen someone portraying a Japanese soldier at Pearl Harbor, on Ford Island, ob December 7th of one year. The Pearl Harbor vets all wanted their photo taken with the guy!

Ha, good for them! I've seen all sorts of reactions and attitudes from guys who Were There to these sorts of things. It's terrible how broken so many of them are and have been all these years later. Sadly, I'm not sure things have much improved for men returning from combat zones. Dark side of humanity, in so many ways.

Not an SS comment, but um, North Korea's only war has been in a "Truce" for roughly 60 years. Those Generals wearing the 5 pounds of medals are probably younger than 70 (probably about 50 actually). They must give the big Medals for writing a report with a black pen and a different big Medal for writing a report with a blue pen. Either that, or their boy scout merit badges are metal.

Maybe.... though while it seems bizarre, on balance I'd much rather they stay at home and hand out medals for that than find an actual war to get themselves into!