Frock coats

[bobalooba]

What's the deal with these things? I know they were popular in the 1800's and that they regained popularity in the fifties but that's it. Where did they come from? are they still worn in some circles and can they still be bought?

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Funny you should mention that!...

I've longed for a frock coat for some three decades now. I've written about it here before - it's the one George Harrison wore on the 'Beatles Again' LP cover.

After such a long time, I'm planning a trip in early May to Liverpool to visit BeatWear where the make and sell an exact replica as shown here.

Here is a pick of me at the fitting in Las Vegas and a photi of Beatle George in his. With jeans, I think it's a great look!

-dixon cannon

 

[m000m000]

Well, thanks to re-enacting being all the rage these days(? ), places like The Sutler's store (and other likes) offer reproduction versions of mostly western themed ones - if you're looking for more British Victorian era things I'd gather the selection become somewhat thinner. Seen some real vintage jackets on ebay too, but the selection seems pretty sparse and the condition not always that great.


As for when to wear one, I've understood that with the dressier versions you could adequately replace a morning coat (which coincidentally is what replaced the frock coat in the first place), but don't quote me on that - I'm not exactly that well-versed on non-standard formalwear etiquette.

 

[bobalooba]

Etiquette isn't a huge issue for me but thanks for the pics, those were cool.
I was talking more victorian styles though. As with other pieces of clothing I've asked about here my interest started when I saw it in doctor who. Peter Davison always wore a tan one with red piping and a celery stock and I thought it would be easier to find a similar one but I always turn up cowboy ones.

Any I find that aren't cowboy ones are dark and rather stodgy looking. I don't want to look overly flamboyant but I also don't want it to stand out.

 

[bobalooba]

Also, being American I'm not very educated on British dress, so I'll ask this too:
Are frock coats now or were they ever part of cricketer uniforms, if so this might help me narrow down my search a little

 

[DJS Press]

Check out this source. You being in Seattle, it would probably be a much easier transaction anyway.

http://www.riverjunction.com/catalog/scoat/albertnprof.html

 

[bobalooba]

cool, I checked this place out and sent an email asking if they could get me one in a different color and how much it would be. Still awaiting response. Speaking of seattle does anybody know of a competent tailor or seamstress around washington that could make one?

 

[Wconly]

I've longed for a frock coat for some three decades now. I've written about it here before - it's the one George Harrison wore on the 'Beatles Again' LP cover.

After such a long time, I'm planning a trip in early May to Liverpool to visit BeatWear where the make and sell an exact replica as shown here.

Here is a pick of me at the fitting in Las Vegas and a photi of Beatle George in his. With jeans, I think it's a great look!

-dixon cannon

Great looking coat and much nicer then the one I own. Yours is right on target -- great job in finding it! Congrats! W>

 

[Edward]

As for when to wear one, I've understood that with the dressier versions you could adequately replace a morning coat (which coincidentally is what replaced the frock coat in the first place), but don't quote me on that - I'm not exactly that well-versed on non-standard formalwear etiquette.

Back in the day, the frock coat (which I think goes back to the 1700s, before they invented America ) was regular daywear for the gentleman. In the Victorian and Edwardian eras, it was the standard coat for formal daywear. The swallow-tailed morning coat was invented as an alternative to the frock coat, designed to sit better and be less in the way on horseback (this in the days when a gentleman would be expected to spend his mornings riding). It was considered originally to be somewhat more informal than the frock coat, though by the 1930s had all but repalced it and ascended to being considered fully formal.

In recent years, I have seen a pronounced growth in the popularity of the frock coat (including some pretty ghastly variations thereon, it has to be said) for wedding wear. I've known a fair few folks opt for this, claiming that tails are "unflattering", "make me look like a penguin", etc. I personally consider this to be erroneous: in my opinion, the square cut of the frock coat cuts the shorter gentleman off at the knees, emphasising lack of height, while for the more generously proportioned gentleman, shall we say, it gives the impression of much greater bulk than present. To my mind, the swooping lines of the morning tails, in to the waist and out again towards the collar / knees has a slimming and lengthening effect that produces a far more flattering look than the frock coat. Having worn both in formal settings, I certianly found the morning tails to be both more flatteri ng and less in the way when sitting down to dinner.

 

[bobalooba]

Well I'm really not wearing it for special occasions and it will probably end up being more of an overcoat than they traditionally were.
If anyone has a frock coat I would love to see some pics if at all possible.

 

[bobalooba]

Sent Indy pics of the one I want for a quote, awaiting a reply, if it's within my budget I'll post pics when I get it.


However I'm not sure what fabric I should use, does anyone know what kind of fabric they were made of in the past? I know a lot of repros are a little heavier than standard suit wool and one UK site said "serge" but more info would be appreciated.

 

[Edward]

Any geuine vintage example I have seen has been made from a similar wool (barentha?) to that one sees in the typical vintage tailcoat.

 

[feltfan]

-dixon cannon

Does it come with the sheep dog, the 20s Stetson, and the LSD?

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Does it come with the sheep dog, the 20s Stetson, and the LSD?

Yes.

-dixon cannon

 

[bobalooba]

Indy gave me the quote and I'll probably end up buying it sometime over the summer.

I still want to know, were these originally part of cricketing uniforms in England?

 

[bobalooba]

new update

I haven't sewed very much before but I know how and I am going to try to make my own coat. I will tell everyone how it goes and I'll probably end up crawling back to indy.

 

[Norumbega]

I like the style. I don't think I can help much, but finding the obscure is a bit of a weakness....

There's a Dr. Who fan who goes into great detail about "the look" including helpful ideas:
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...el=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&um=1

On this site, if you scroll down, you'll see it described as a "long coat":
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...el=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&um=1

I then stumbled on to this website, which I think is UK. Lots of information on style, tailors, and well...........everything. Their forum has alot of links:
http://www.filmnoirbuff.com/index.php

Not sure if any of this is helpful, but perhaps something to aide in your quest will turn up. Good luck.

 

[bobalooba]

It's very helpful, I too have a love of the obscure and spend way too much time finding out interesting tidbits that will never help me in my daily life.

Thanks very much and I'll look at these and see what there is too see. Especially since it seems hard to find good pics of this coat on the internet. Davison always has his hands in his trouser pockets which pushes back the coat making certain things (pockets, length etc.) hard to see.

 

[bobalooba]

I read the entire site, my head hurts, I'm disoriented and I want to go eat a whole bushel of celery. It was a wonderful resource although I felt like a nerd reading it. for anyone else who clicked on the link the bit about the question marks really astounded me. Did anyone else know there were so many different designs?

Wow, great find though, and thanks again.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Back in the day, the frock coat (which I think goes back to the 1700s, before they invented America ) was regular day-wear for the gentleman. In the Victorian and Edwardian eras, it was the standard coat for formal day-wear. The swallow-tailed morning coat was invented as an alternative to the frock coat, designed to sit better and be less in the way on horseback (this in the days when a gentleman would be expected to spend his mornings riding). It was considered originally to be somewhat more informal than the frock coat, though by the 1930s had all but repalced it and ascended to being considered fully formal.

In recent years, I have seen a pronounced growth in the popularity of the frock coat (including some pretty ghastly variations thereon, it has to be said) for wedding wear. I've known a fair few folks opt for this, claiming that tails are "unflattering", "make me look like a penguin", etc. I personally consider this to be erroneous: in my opinion, the square cut of the frock coat cuts the shorter gentleman off at the knees, emphasizing lack of height, while for the more generously proportioned gentleman, shall we say, it gives the impression of much greater bulk than present. To my mind, the swooping lines of the morning tails, in to the waist and out again towards the collar / knees has a slimming and lengthening effect that produces a far more flattering look than the frock coat. Having worn both in formal settings, I certainly found the morning tails to be both more flattering and less in the way when sitting down to dinner.

Sir, you are missing out on a great deal if you would (if you will excuse the pun) cut out the frock coat! It is not in the way at all if proper coat etiquette (not common or known much these days to be sure, but still), have a frock coat cut and fitted perfectly to your form to be lengthening and heightening and wear it with the properly high-waisted trousers/braces (suspenders) and high-cut high gorge waist-coat! All of the aforementioned features and elements contribute to make the frock ensemble or 'suit' if you will (though, frankly speaking as none of the items constitute a suit as such aside from the fact that they are all to be worn together to create the general ensemble which coordinates with a frock coat) one of the most elegant and flattering out-fits which a man may wear right alongside full fig formal court wear and, of course, evening tails (white tie in modern jargon) I, sir have also worn both (frock coats and swallow-tailed cut away coats) both original period pieces may I add and knowing the basics of clothing etiquette as per the pulling the tails of a frock coat under you or spreading them around the back of the chair and allowing them to fan gently out over the knees and spread in the front as well as the occasion and seating allow. There should be no problems whatsoever as long as your frock coat is fitted to your natural waist so that its waist seam where the skirting begins is actually at or just above or just below (though not by much if) one's navel. The navel is also incidentally where the waist-coat which one wears should come down to along with being the point to which the trousers ought to rise and higher in the back! Some of the fitting details which may alter the elegant and statuesque appearance of the ensemble include over-large shoulders on the coat e.g., it is too large in the shoulders for the man wearing it, or, the trousers being too wide in the leg and hem creating and stumpy look whereas formal striped or checked trousers to be worn with a frock coat ensemble really ought to be rather fitted and high waisted without too many pleats either and, perhaps even with slightly pegged hems (they should not be worn with cuffs/turn-ups). The frock coat can also be cut to any length which will best flatter the intended wearer whether only half way down the thigh or just above the knee, the only real consideration aside from personal taste and fit for best personal sizing is that the shorter the coat, the more informal it is, likewise for single breasted as opposed to double breasted frock coats, the former in both instances being more informal and the latter more. Also of note, a well cut frock coat is really elegant worn open if it is fitted properly and looks imminently goodly on anyone who has the panache to pull it off as obfuscated by all of the images of men of the Victorian and Edwardian eras wearing them open with their high waisted waist-coats and trousers showing which also contribute to a Lengthening effect! I have nothing against cut-away morning coats, but, I do not wish to see the frock coat slandered as such as it is one of my favourite garments and, one which I wear on a regular basis with pride.