Free, Fair and Open Elections

[carebear]

I'm not a conspiracy nut (gun nut, libertarian nut, Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers nut, yes, not the conspiracy kind)

BUT

there are HUGE documented problems with the Diebold machines now sweeping the nation. Jim March of California has documented irregularities in the electoral process in many counties there as well as gaping security holes in the soft- and hard-ware. It goes beyond party politics.

If you live in Cali, you owe it to yourself to get to know Mr. March. He's out there fighting for you and freedom in general.

 

[Lincsong]

I'm not a conspiracy nut (gun nut, libertarian nut, Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers nut, yes, not the conspiracy kind)

BUT

there are HUGE documented problems with the Diebold machines now sweeping the nation. Jim March of California has documented irregularities in the electoral process in many counties there as well as gaping security holes in the soft- and hard-ware. It goes beyond party politics.

If you live in Cali, you owe it to yourself to get to know Mr. March. He's out there fighting for you and freedom in general.

Well said, here in Alameda County I am very suspicious about these elections. I've seen people demand to vote who are not even registered in the precinct. When asked where do they live, they just point and say; "oh-va dare":rage:

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Pinochet was in no way any more brutal than other Latin American dictators; namely Che Guevara and Fidel Castro. Pinochet was fighting a brutal and dispicable force in Chile that wanted to enslave people. Fidel has never held a free and fair election. Pinochet held a plebiscite whether or not he should be allowed to stay in power. He lost and left office. He also left Chile better off economically than Allende ever would. Would Fidel ever do that? I'm tired of these leftists always equating Hitler with Right leaning governments. Hitler was a vegetarian, animal rights advocate, certifiable nutcase and socialist. Very far from a Reagan or Milton Friedman.

I'm afraid this comment speaks for itself, though not in the way the author intended.

I regret a bit I joined this thread, as politics seems to disturb the otherwise friendly atmosphere in the Lounge. That might be worth a thread of its own: How can such a stupid [rightwinger/leftwinger/Nazi/commie/religious nut/amoral atheist] be so reasonable if it is about shaving cream or the best vintagey fabric for a 50s skirt?

 

[jamespowers]

I'm afraid this comment speaks for itself, though not in the way the author intended.

I regret a bit I joined this thread, as politics seems to disturb the otherwise friendly atmosphere in the Lounge. That might be worth a thread of its own: How can such a stupid [rightwinger/leftwinger/Nazi/commie/religious nut/amoral atheist] be so reasonable if it is about shaving cream or the best vintagey fabric for a 50s skirt?

[huh] [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Salv]

... I'm tired of these leftists always equating Hitler with Right leaning governments. Hitler was a vegetarian, animal rights advocate, certifiable nutcase and socialist. Very far from a Reagan or Milton Friedman.

In what way was Hitler a socialist? Which of his policies were socialist policies?

 

[carebear]

In what way was Hitler a socialist? Which of his policies were socialist policies?

"Nazi" is shorthand for national socialism.

National socialism had many of the traditional elements of classic socialism but instead of actual state-ownership of the means of production the state would grant benefits and the ability to operate to industries who supported the state. Independant operation was in practice impossible, state control by proxy and influence rather than overt bureaucratic rule.

The Nazis' use of pro-labor rhetoric appealed to those disaffected with capitalism by promoting the limiting of profits, the abolishing of rents and the increasing of social benefits (only for Germans) while simultaneously presenting a political and economic model that divested "Soviet socialism" of elements that were dangerous to capitalism, such as the concept of class struggle, "the dictatorship of the proletariat" or worker control of the means of production.

Nazi economic practice concerned itself with immediate domestic issues and separately with ideological conceptions of international economics.

Domestic economic policy was narrowly concerned with three major goals:

Elimination of unemployment.
Elimination of hyperinflation. (dubious assertion—see talk page)
Expansion of production of consumer goods to improve middle and lower-class living standards.

All of these policy goals were intended to address the perceived shortcomings of the Weimar Republic and to solidify domestic support for the party. In this, the party was very successful. Between 1933 and 1936 the German GNP increased by an average annual rate of 9.5 percent, and the rate for industry alone rose by 17.2 percent.

This expansion propelled the German economy out of a deep depression and into full employment in less than four years. Public consumption during the same period increased by 18.7%, while private consumption increased by 3.6% annually. However, as this production was primarily consumptive rather than productive (make-work projects, expansion of the war-fighting machine, initiation of conscription to remove working age males from the labor force and thus lower unemployment), inflationary pressures began to rear their head again, although not to the highs of the Weimar Republic. These economic pressures, combined with the war-fighting machine created in the expansion (and concomitant pressures for its use), has led some to conclude that a European war was inevitable.

Sounds remarkably similar to FDR's economic programme, no? There are more than a few parallels in other policies as well.

 

[Roger]

In what way was Hitler a socialist? Which of his policies were socialist policies?

Nazi-National Socialist Party Do we need more? Officially; National Socialist German Workers Party.:rage:

And please my EU associates let's not devolve into a semantic argument over the word "socialist" as in "well, the Soviets weren't communists they were socialists", :eusa_doh: Hitler wasn't a socialists he was a Nazi.":eusa_doh:

The principal auxiliary organization of the Nazi party was the SA, officially designated as the "guarantor of the National Socialist revolution" and the "vanguard of National Socialism" It extorted large sums of money from German workers and peasants through its annual "winter help" collections for the poor.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Hitler put known communists in concentration camps.

 

[Twitch]

I would never fix an election. But I will soon probably no longer vote...again. After Vietnam I didn't vote out of disrespect to all politicians of all parties until I was 40. I have voted since but did not make a presidential choice in the last election between dumb and dumber. I decided a while back I'd just vote for bond measures and propositions so I wasn't endorsing a person. Those have become tainted as well with the oblique language and ambigiously worded descriptions. Years later they're evolved as being the opposite of what we voted for. I'm a Libertarian in belief more than in supporting candidates of that party as blindly following party dictum is anti-Libertarian anyhow.

I always felt that by not voting you are still making a choice. For me all politicians that have arrived at any prominent level are responsible for immoral and probably illegal acts. I think we should have 6 years terms followed by 6 year sentences because surely after 6 years in public office most of these bums have done something to deserves time behind bars.

 

[carebear]

I always felt that by not voting you are still making a choice.

Rush (the band) would agree.

I'm a Libertarian in belief more than in supporting candidates of that party as blindly following party dictum is anti-Libertarian anyhow.

A Republican friend of mine told me once the only real difference between libertarians and anarchists is that libertarians tend to dress better.

 

[Salv]

Nazi-National Socialist Party Do we need more? Officially; National Socialist German Workers Party.:rage:

And please my EU associates let's not devolve into a semantic argument over the word "socialist" as in "well, the Soviets weren't communists they were socialists", :eusa_doh: Hitler wasn't a socialists he was a Nazi.":eusa_doh:

The principal auxiliary organization of the Nazi party was the SA, officially designated as the "guarantor of the National Socialist revolution" and the "vanguard of National Socialism" It extorted large sums of money from German workers and peasants through its annual "winter help" collections for the poor.

So Hitler was a socialist in the same way that:
• Kim Jong Il (as the leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea) is a Democratic Republican (or is that a Republican Democrat?);
• Fidel Castro (as head of the Republic of Cuba) is a Republican;
• Hugo Chavez (as president of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela) is a Republican;
• Hu Jintao (as Paramount Leader of the People's Republic of China) is a Republican.

There's a good basic biography of Hitler on the Spartacus school's website, which makes it quite plain that Hitler hated socialism and all that it stood for. Some relevant quotes:

After the war Hitler was stationed in Munich, the capital of Bavaria. While Hitler was in Munich, the capital of Bavaria, Kurt Eisner, leader of the Independent Socialist Party, declared Bavaria a Socialist Republic. Hitler was appalled by the revolution. As a German Nationalist he disagreed with the socialist belief in equality.

Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy.

It was not until May, 1919 that the German Army entered Munich and overthrew the Bavarian Socialist Republic. Hitler was arrested with other soldiers in Munich and was accused of being a socialist. Hundreds of socialists were executed without trial but Hitler was able to convince them that he had been an opponent of the regime. To prove this he volunteered to help to identify soldiers who had supported the Socialist Republic. The authorities agreed to this proposal and Hitler was transferred to the commission investigating the revolution.

Information supplied by Hitler helped to track down several soldiers involved in the uprising. His officers were impressed by his hostility to left-wing ideas and he was recruited as a political officer.

etc. etc. etc.

This page deals with the "Hitler was a socialist" nonsense in a far more convincing manner than I could I ever manage - here's the introduction:

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.

 

[Strider]

Never. To fix an election (whether or not I think it has already been done is neither here nor there) would be to pervert the very principles that this country was founded upon. No matter how much I dislike a candidate or what they stand for, I love my country (that doesn't mean I have to love or like who is running it or how it's being run, mind you), my constitution, and the system in which said things were founded on.

How can you rig an election that is already fixed.
Can you say "Electoral College" ?

Exactly. I don't understand how a candidate can win more votes than another and still lose.

Would You Assassinate a Head of State?

YES!!

How do you do that? Both sides, spending huge sums of money on the campaign...watching the opponent like a hawk, the media everywhere.... when is it done?

Ask Walden O'Dell, former CEO of Diebold, who went on record promising to deliver all of Ohio's electoral votes to Dubya. Ask congressman Peter King, who, before the 2004 election was over, was VIDEOTAPED saying: "It's over. The election's over. We won." When asked how he knew, King replied: "It's all over but the counting. And we'll take care of the counting."

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin

And before you ask...

In the instance of the 2004 election, Kerry has clearly shown he is not willing to take a stand on the issue of possible (I only use the word possible as a pleasantry, more blatant) voter fraud. And indeed, you will find a great reluctance in the entire government to address the fraud, because of their fear that if the 2004 election is revealed to have been a fraud, the public will start to question whether previous elections were equally fraudulent, knowing that evidence to support such a conclusion is in abundance for those who look.

The American people are at risk of waking up and realizing that they did not in fact vote for the governments which have been in power over them for decades, and did not in fact vote to approve any of the disasterous fiscal and military policies the government has set, and that in fact the majority of Americans have never agreed with much of what has been going on. If the election is revealed to have been a fraud, Americans will (rightly) conclude that they are under no obligation to obey the government any longer, to follow the government's dictates, or to surrender their money and children to a bunch of unelected thugs.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Salv. Losing battle, mate.

Semantics and discussion of the rhetorical uses of "-isms" are lost here. Best to leave it.

bk

 

[MK]

.

Whether Hitler was a soclialist, polygamist or a pacifist has nothing to do with elections.fftopic:

Every political thread here ends up in a total abandonment of the original subject and becomes a debate of liberal vs. conservative ideals.

You fought that battle already.

Try to stay on topic.

 

[Lincsong]

Cool Hand Luke movie

A line from Cool Hand Luke;

What we have here, is.......a.......failure to communicate.

Some people, .....you just can't reach.


So let's talk about the topic. If someone is willing to "fix" an election, that person has no respect for the process of which an election is held. Therefore, anyone who wishes to "fix" an election has already abandoned whatever he may "hold dear". If he held anything dear in the first place.

 

[Salv]

Yes, Roger, stay on topic.

 

[Strider]

I was on topic.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

If someone is willing to "fix" an election, that person has no respect for the process of which an election is held. Therefore, anyone who wishes to "fix" and election has already abandoned whatever he may "hold dear". If he held anything dear in the first place.

Beautifully said, Lincsong. :eusa_clap A fine example of why I respect you, even if and when we disagree. (And in this case, we don't )

.

 

[Lincsong]

We don't disagree that often but;

That's why it is called "engaging in an intelligent debate".

 

[Twitch]

Yeah Linc fixing an election is sort of like robbing the poor box at the church.