Foyle's War UK WW II period police drama

[billyspew]

Our local Englishmen may correct me, but according to my Pommy gandfather, hats were a very distinctive class symbol. He, as a proud 'working man', always wore a flat-cap while his father, who was of a more middle-class occupation, would wear a brimmed hat.

You certainly see this on the show. Most characters wear cloth caps while the detectives and more senior members of the community wear the fedoras, Derbies etc.

I think that is correct.
My Grandfather always wore a flat-cap and he was a workin class man from the docks, as did his father, while my father claims as soon as he got his first office job after coming out of the merchant navy he bought a trilby. Unfortunately he no longer wears one and I don't remember him ever wearing one.

Coming back to the question on the brim - I have seen quite a few Attaboy trilbys from that period (unfortunately never found one my size ) and they do seem to have a reasonably flat brims. These were one of the big selling brands in the era that it's set. A couple of the hats in Bates that I've trid on have this trait too.

 

[BellyTank]

I'd assumed that the hat "treatments" in "Foyle's War", were down to a lack of correct, or engaged costuming. The hats seem very cheap and boring.
British men did wear their hats differently from Americans and the hats were indeed different but those hats on Foyle's war just look wrong and did I say cheap(?).

Flat caps were not an exclusively working class item, although perhaps part of common work dress- they were a cap for "working",
or sport(not really a working class thing at the time), or "Country pursuits"- where a "good" hat would be inappropriate.
I have seen many photos of men in Britain, in the '30s wearing proper hats combined with fairly "working class" forms of "dress" clothing.

I think there is, however and was at the time, an assumption that the flat cap WAS a working class piece of head wear but men of higher class, or status did wear them, as a more casual, or sporting "hat", or as a quaint style, an affectation. Fashion, you know.


B
T

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

Yep...even Kings wore the flat cap. Here's George VI relaxing with Mrs King:

 

[Dewhurst]

The hats seem very cheap and boring.

How is a hat boring or not boring?

 

[gtdean48]

...According to my memory (I am over 50, so be forgiving), it was partially attributed to a bluegrass band that drew media attention for a performance in NYC in the 1930s (was it the 40s? - was it Washington DC?), and to look nice for the stage, in addition to their other clothing, all bought Open Roads bashed in the Alpine - appropriate for a 'mountain music' band. In those days, 'country' was combined with 'western' for 'country and western' music, and blue grass pick'n was part of that genre. There were photos that received wide media attention, and from that point forward, that hat bash became associated with 'country and western' and everything that went with it; by the 1960's (LBJ) it was really taking hold as the new thing for western - up to that time (check out cowboy flicks from that era, try to find a young John Wayne in a cattleman's crease), telescopes, gus, open crown, bowlers, and pinched fronts hat ruled. Since that time, the Alpine name is forgotten and it is called LBJ or cattleman's, with various slight differences - hi bull rider, etc.

I have since looked at photos online from a national archive of photos taken during the late 1800's cattle-drive period (which only lasted about 20 years), and I never saw a cattleman-equivalent bash in any of those photos. Sombreros, telescopes, bowlers, open crown, newsboy type caps, and an occasional fedora style, but I did not see any that looked like today's 'cowboy' hats. So, I continue to disdain the cattleman's crease - I consider it a 20th century creation, not genuine to the cattle-drive period it is supposed to represent.

Please correct me if I am wrong - am only trying to replay from memory.

JB, you are pretty dead on as most hats sold to true cowboys, those on cattle drives, were all sold open crown where the alpine/cattleman crease is a very "factory" type crease. I see them all over every horse show & auction that I attend. Every judge & auctioneer wears them as well as every contestant, trainer, etc. Cutters have a slight modification, just look at certain styles with cutter bumps in them. George Strait wears a generic cattleman crease, where Garth Brooks wears an "arena" crease which is the cattleman with a higher back & tighter "pinch" up front. The Quarter Horse is a taller version with longer side dents but the same thing.

 

[David V]

Those hats in Foyle's War always looked like cheap wool felt costume things.

 

[kaosharper1]

Well, this was during the war when everything was rationed. The series spend a lot of time investigating black market activities. Given that Foyle was a civil servant, his salary would be low. Plus, there sure weren't any hats or felt coming from the continent in those days.

It's just that most of these BBC productions are known for their authenticity so they might have gone cheap on the hats, but there were a lot of nice homborgs worn by the more well-to-do folks on this show too.

 

[billyspew]

The area in Manchester where Attaboy trilby just happened to be a made was a large producer of wool, and the examples I have seen have felt like they had a lot of wool in it too (same with the Dunn & Co's). If they were wearing representative examples then I'm not surprised they look cheap.

 

[BellyTank]

The hats seem very cheap and boring.

How is a hat boring or not boring?

I'm afraid that I will be more or less useless here...

...don't be afraid... don't be very afraid...

Was it a serious question?




B
T

 

[elvisroe]

Yes of course flatcaps were worn at various times by all, I guess what I meant was more that war-time working-class Britts like my GF would not have have generally worn a brimmed hat. In fact in his case as a union leader, wearing a cap was a point of pride.

Foyle's station and mode of dress is much more middle class.

 

[Dewhurst]

Was it a serious question?

I am aware that the opinions will vary dramatically, but yes it was a serious question.

 

[Inusuit]

I meant on FL Hats bb, not this string. I cannot remember which string I read that on; it was a journey into the history of the cattleman's bash that has become so popular today - in fact, so popular amongst so many that I despise it, it is almost like a baseball cap worn backwards, just overdone - no individuality. I read that before there was a server meltdown, and that occurred over a year ago, so that string might be lost now.

According to my memory (I am over 50, so be forgiving), it was partially attributed to a bluegrass band that drew media attention for a performance in NYC in the 1930s (was it the 40s? - was it Washington DC?), and to look nice for the stage, in addition to their other clothing, all bought Open Roads bashed in the Alpine - appropriate for a 'mountain music' band. In those days, 'country' was combined with 'western' for 'country and western' music, and blue grass pick'n was part of that genre. There were photos that received wide media attention, and from that point forward, that hat bash became associated with 'country and western' and everything that went with it; by the 1960's (LBJ) it was really taking hold as the new thing for western - up to that time (check out cowboy flicks from that era, try to find a young John Wayne in a cattleman's crease), telescopes, gus, open crown, bowlers, and pinched fronts hat ruled. Since that time, the Alpine name is forgotten and it is called LBJ or cattleman's, with various slight differences - hi bull rider, etc.

I have since looked at photos online from a national archive of photos taken during the late 1800's cattle-drive period (which only lasted about 20 years), and I never saw a cattleman-equivalent bash in any of those photos. Sombreros, telescopes, bowlers, open crown, newsboy type caps, and an occasional fedora style, but I did not see any that looked like today's 'cowboy' hats. So, I continue to disdain the cattleman's crease - I consider it a 20th century creation, not genuine to the cattle-drive period it is supposed to represent.

Please correct me if I am wrong - am only trying to replay from memory.

You are certainly free to despise the cattleman's crease and its variations. I see a lots of cattleman creases around Wyoming. I have several myself. I suspect that some individuals wearing that crease correctly consider themselves full-time working cowboys and would take serious offense at being compared with the backwards ball cap crowd. Styles change in "real" cowboy hats just as other styles do. For example, I don't care for and wouldn't wear a modern cowboy hat with the very flat section in the front of the the brim.

Even in the late 19th century, cowboys from Texas had, for the most part, a different style crease and brim width than cowboys from Montana or from the Northwest. Same goes for chaps, spurs, ropes, saddles, and other gear, all with regional variations.

I agree that the Cattleman is a 20th century style and I don't believe it is supposed to represent anything other than a modern crease.

I can't comment on the bluegrass/country/western connection, although I've seen bluegrass musicians in Open Roads with either a fedora crease or a cattleman.

Not picking a disagreement here, just my opinion, taste, and preference.

 

[Woodfluter]

It's been a while since I watched episodes of Foyle's War, and my reaction was similar to some expressed here. BBC does a fine job with costuming, usually, but there just seemed to be something odd about the hats.

Maybe wrongly, I assumed it had something to do with the quirks of the costumer or director rather than the period...plus one other thing: the actors just didn't look like they were comfortable wearing hats. They wore them and handled them in a sort of self-conscious way that the habitual hat wearer would not. If correct, that might explain the dead-square down over the forehead look.

- Bill

 

[Torpedo]

It's been a while since I watched episodes of Foyle's War, and my reaction was similar to some expressed here. BBC does a fine job with costuming, usually, but there just seemed to be something odd about the hats.

Maybe wrongly, I assumed it had something to do with the quirks of the costumer or director rather than the period...plus one other thing: the actors just didn't look like they were comfortable wearing hats. They wore them and handled them in a sort of self-conscious way that the habitual hat wearer would not. If correct, that might explain the dead-square down over the forehead look.

- Bill

I have not seen the show, and can not comment on it. In the few pics I have seen, the hats do look odd.

Regarding the way the actors wear them... this is something I notice in modern period shows or movies. Of course, it is to be expected, because nowadays people are not used to wearing hats. In the movies actually made in the period, or some time after, this is obviously very different.

I imagine in those days people acquired a natural "hat nonchalance", so to put it, because hats were a normal piece of clothing. At present, if you are to wear hats in a hat-wearing void (as many of us do), you most probably have to acquire that naturality. It would seem some people acquire it more easily, as if it was somehow ingrained and latent.

 

[Goodtimes]

Hello all:

As this was the first thread that I started since joining TFL, I just want to take a moment to say how pleasantly surprised I am at all of the interesting comments pertaining to Foyle's War and hats of that era in general. Though I am still new to this area of interest you have all shown yourselves to be very knowledgable and passionate about this subject and it's a great pleasure to see the latest responses posted here. Thanks to everyone for your great insights!!


Goodtimes

 

[BellyTank]

I am aware that the opinions will vary dramatically, but yes it was a serious question.

I did answer you today but the message seems to have disappeared
and it wasn't even rude...


B
T

 

[avedwards]

Regarding the way the actors wear them... this is something I notice in modern period shows or movies. Of course, it is to be expected, because nowadays people are not used to wearing hats. In the movies actually made in the period, or some time after, this is obviously very different.

I imagine in those days people acquired a natural "hat nonchalance", so to put it, because hats were a normal piece of clothing. At present, if you are to wear hats in a hat-wearing void (as many of us do), you most probably have to acquire that naturality. It would seem some people acquire it more easily, as if it was somehow ingrained and latent.

That seems to leave only two options:
1. Get actors like Johnny Depp to do the hat wearing parts as he knows how to wear one (in public enemies this is one thing that cannot be criticised as he does wear his hat properly, plus it is an early 1930s looking hat).
2. Get a cast made up of FL members.

 

[Dewhurst]

I did answer you today but the message seems to have disappeared
and it wasn't even rude...

Interesting.

2. Get a cast made up of FL members.

That would probably go down on Rotten Tomatoes are something as tops in the "Worst Extras Ever!" category. Who wants a bunch of obsessive hat stroking freaks like us for extras? We would stick out so badly.

 

[avedwards]

That would probably go down on Rotten Tomatoes are something as tops in the "Worst Extras Ever!" category. Who wants a bunch of obsessive hat stroking freaks like us for extras? We would stick out so badly.

If we really were to be film extras for a period film I think we'd only stick out because we'd show up the actors by being more period accurate than them. I'm quite sure that a group of FL members could be rounded up who could dress and do background acting in completely period accurate clothing for the 1940s.

 

[Dewhurst]

If we really were to be film extras for a period film I think we'd only stick out because we'd show up the actors by being more period accurate than them. I'm quite sure that a group of FL members could be rounded up who could dress and do background acting in completely period accurate clothing for the 1940s.

Whoa... we are so like Trekkies who have more accurate and better looking Federation costumes than Jonathan Frakes and Brent Spiner and we can speak Klingon fluently! (Unlike ANYONE on the show.lol )

I'm gonna have to purge this "Retro enthusiast extras who are more accurate than the actors" thing from my mind now. It has disturbing parallels.