Formulae for hat proportions

[Zoukatron]

Hello people,

I tried to search for something like this on the forums, but couldn't find what I was looking for. So... we all know the advice that a hat's proportions should be matched to our own bodies (whether face shape, shoulder breadth, total height or whatever) if we want a hat to look as good as possible on us. Proportional implies that there are actually mathematical formulae to it. In some cases I can see these getting very complicated (e.g. in the case of someone with a very small head but incredibly wide shoulders and a very oddly shaped face), but I wondered if anyone had anything solid, or at least a rule of thumb that they use. For example, as I was walking along the road today, I saw my shadow and wondered if the diameter across my brim was about a third of the length across my shoulders. Clearly, these rules would also end up varying by broad hat type (i.e. country stiff-brim vs city snap-brim vs city kettle-curls). Thanks.

 

[Frunobulax]

Hello people,

I tried to search for something like this on the forums, but couldn't find what I was looking for. So... we all know the advice that a hat's proportions should be matched to our own bodies (whether face shape, shoulder breadth, total height or whatever) if we want a hat to look as good as possible on us. Proportional implies that there are actually mathematical formulae to it. In some cases I can see these getting very complicated (e.g. in the case of someone with a very small head but incredibly wide shoulders and a very oddly shaped face), but I wondered if anyone had anything solid, or at least a rule of thumb that they use. For example, as I was walking along the road today, I saw my shadow and wondered if the diameter across my brim was about a third of the length across my shoulders. Clearly, these rules would also end up varying by broad hat type (i.e. country stiff-brim vs city snap-brim vs city kettle-curls). Thanks.

There are some threads on the FL that deal with face shapes and brim widths/crown heights, but I haven't seen anything that brought the rest of those variables into it. I'm sure if a proper haberdasher was sizing you up, he'd take that into account.

However, my advice is simple: If you like the hat, wear the hat. And enjoy yourself.


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I, for one, do not see an algorithm doing a very good job at this. Aesthetics are so subjective to begin with. I hate how most "fashionable" clothing looks so without some universally accepted goal I don't see how you could come up with a construct that works. Additionally, the variables are so many that it would take way too much work for a dubious return on the investment. Style doesn't actually have "rules" and many of us enjoy breaking what are considered rules. I can't help but to think of Michael A and I'm positive that no program would chose his outfits but he has a great style and the verve to pull it off.

Look at how many people love/hate the stingy brim for just one data point. Some people choose the brim width to compliment their "shape" but most just like it because they do. And some people like both wide and stingy brims (me).

I don't like three button suits, notched lapels on dinner jackets, or clip on suspenders and my preferences are unique to me and a one-size-fits-all algorithm would be of no worth. I think some things are best left to the individual and their personal taste.

 

[steur]

I'm sure a mathematician could work something out, but as @deadlyhandsome says: these things are mostly a matter of personal preference. Then there's the matter of having a "hat-face" for lack of a proper word. Some people manage to look in just about any hat and wear all different styles (Alanfgag comes to mind) whereas other members stick to a specific hat style and stick to that. I must say I have been wondering about the ratio between brim width and crown height myself but found that over time my own preference for the "right" ratio changed so calculating it would not mean anything really.

 

[carouselvic]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/hat-life-yearbook-1946.86490/

 

[Rogera]

Hello people,

I tried to search for something like this on the forums, but couldn't find what I was looking for. So... we all know the advice that a hat's proportions should be matched to our own bodies (whether face shape, shoulder breadth, total height or whatever) if we want a hat to look as good as possible on us. Proportional implies that there are actually mathematical formulae to it. In some cases I can see these getting very complicated (e.g. in the case of someone with a very small head but incredibly wide shoulders and a very oddly shaped face), but I wondered if anyone had anything solid, or at least a rule of thumb that they use. For example, as I was walking along the road today, I saw my shadow and wondered if the diameter across my brim was about a third of the length across my shoulders. Clearly, these rules would also end up varying by broad hat type (i.e. country stiff-brim vs city snap-brim vs city kettle-curls). Thanks.

Hat wearing is more of an art than a science IMO. Trying on as many hats as possible has been the only true way to make sure I had the right hat. The wearer has to be comfortable in what he's wearing and that's all that counts.

 

[Zoukatron]

Thanks for that link carouselvic.

Clearly not something that has ever been clearly ground down. I know I have my own tastes, which I'm fine and happy with, but I do wonder if there are some clear figures that could be worked out. Would be very very complex though.

 

[moontheloon]

I have an amazing formula ... find a mirror and judge for yourself

one thing that always hold true as far as I have seen ... the newer someone is to hats the more narrow the brims seem to be and they get wider the more comfortable the wearer gets

so save yourself some time and money and just buy the wider brim upfront because in a few months time you will be buying them anyway

 

[Richard Morgan]

I have an amazing formula ... find a mirror and judge for yourself

one thing that always hold true as far as I have seen ... the newer someone is to hats the more narrow the brims seem to be and they get wider the more comfortable the wearer gets

so save yourself some time and money and just buy the wider brim upfront because in a few months time you will be buying them anyway

Second that. In less than a year I've gone from thinking anything with a brim over 2" was good to wondering if I should be looking at westerns.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I have an amazing formula ... find a mirror and judge for yourself

one thing that always hold true as far as I have seen ... the newer someone is to hats the more narrow the brims seem to be and they get wider the more comfortable the wearer gets

so save yourself some time and money and just buy the wider brim upfront because in a few months time you will be buying them anyway

Just a couple of months ago Joao was wearing 1 7/8 brims and now look at him.

I generally agree with the statement that you will move from narrow brims to wider, but while I mostly wear brims that are 2 1/2 or more, I still sometimes wear stingy brims; just like I sometimes wear caps. Got to love diversity.

 

[hatsRme]

Anybody remember this thread? Your answer awaits, @Zoukatron!

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/optimal-hat-measurements-through-golden-ratio.71270/

 

[Redfokker]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/hat-life-yearbook-1946.86490/

+1 This one for sure! But as we all have pointed out. Just wear it! If you look really goofy, your wife will let you know

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I think this is emblematic of how society now works: we look for a formula or some set of rules rather than put in the personal effort to figure things out for yourself. The look of the golden age was not the product of algorithms or formulas. Style is supposed to be personal and even intimate.

There is an old adage about training your eye and then trusting your eye. I don't mean to belittle those who look for a formulas or helps as shortcuts, I do it myself with somethings, but there is something to be said for trial and error and figuring your style out for yourself.

 

[Bill Hughes]

I have an amazing formula ... find a mirror and judge for yourself

one thing that always hold true as far as I have seen ... the newer someone is to hats the more narrow the brims seem to be and they get wider the more comfortable the wearer gets

so save yourself some time and money and just buy the wider brim upfront because in a few months time you will be buying them anyway

Very true about brim width. Now I don’t consider anything less than 2 1/2”. But, for me at least, I have also started moving to taller crowns.

 

[Richard Morgan]

I think this is emblematic of how society now works: we look for a formula or some set of rules rather than put in the personal effort to figure things out for yourself. The look of the golden age was not the product of algorithms or formulas. Style is supposed to be personal and even intimate.

There is an old adage about training your eye and then trusting your eye. I don't mean to belittle those who look for a formulas or helps as shortcuts, I do it myself with somethings, but there is something to be said for trial and error and figuring your style out for yourself.

Deadly, I agree that each of us who cares about style, whether it be hats, clothes, furniture, jewelry or whatever, owes it to ourselves to learn the style elements that please us and how to apply those elements to our lives. It adds a real measure of meaning to life.
I do disagree with the statement that the golden age was not the product of algorithms or formulas. The artists and designers that created the golden age from the Arts and Crafts movement to Art Deco and beyond were well versed in the golden mean and probably used it as the starting point for many if not most of their designs. The golden mean or ratio goes back to at least the 15th century and probably much further. It shows up in all the things we consider style, architecture, art and even in the hats we wear.
It is an incredibly useful tool that allows even people who are not trained as artists or designers to have a starting point to work from and makes the trial and error path much shorter and easier.
I'm not saying we should stick rigidly to any formula in design but having a personal style does not mean we should throw out hundreds of years of knowledge and try to learn everything for ourselves. We have tried and tested tools for what works, not using them is, imo, a big part of what is wrong with design today.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Deadly, I agree that each of us who cares about style, whether it be hats, clothes, furniture, jewelry or whatever, owes it to ourselves to learn the style elements that please us and how to apply those elements to our lives. It adds a real measure of meaning to life.
I do disagree with the statement that the golden age was not the product of algorithms or formulas. The artists and designers that created the golden age from the Arts and Crafts movement to Art Deco and beyond were well versed in the golden mean and probably used it as the starting point for many if not most of their designs. The golden mean or ratio goes back to at least the 15th century and probably much further. It shows up in all the things we consider style, architecture, art and even in the hats we wear.
It is an incredibly useful tool that allows even people who are not trained as artists or designers to have a starting point to work from and makes the trial and error path much shorter and easier.
I'm not saying we should stick rigidly to any formula in design but having a personal style does not mean we should throw out hundreds of years of knowledge and try to learn everything for ourselves. We have tried and tested tools for what works, not using them is, imo, a big part of what is wrong with design today.

While I don't disagree that certain ratios or proportions have endured for a long time, I don't think that our diverse immigrant entrepreneurs who mostly came from humble beginnings before designing our garb were aware of any "golden mean." Most trends started locally by haberdashers, tailors, seamstresses, etc., who had little formal education and I doubt that their apprenticeships included the golden mean or any other ratios.

Style is not physics and there are no real formulas that are universally applicable. If this was so we would see a convergence of style into a single point. As it is, fashion is cyclical and short lived whereas style changes very slowly but is different from one culture to the next without convergence or homogenization.

Personally, as an amateur student of history, I think that it is a mistake to assign so much importance of the "golden mean." Perhaps it had a greater influence in architecture or other endeavors, but in clothing I don't think it had much impact. My wife is a professional in the design industry (almost 30 years) with a degree from a prestigious university and she had no idea of what the golden mean was.

I don't espouse disregarding the lessons from the past, but I firmly believe that matters of style will always have a subjective and arbitrary component that defies being distilled to a formula. Personally, I prefer it that way.




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[deadlyhandsome]

+1 This one for sure! But as we all have pointed out. Just wear it! If you look really goofy, your wife will let you know

I don't know about trusting my wife. She said this hat wasn't a good fit for our annual Nutcracker ballet outing. Clearly she doesn't know a great ballet hat when she sees one!

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[moehawk]

Don't forget about the whimsy of fashion when talking about the times when hat wearing was the rule rather than the exception. We now have the option of wearing whatever crown shape and brim width we want or feel we look best in as there is no current fashionable look for a hat. But the well dressed and in fashion man who wore 2 3/4" brims in 1950 would have been sporting a 2" or maybe smaller brim in 1960 to stay current with the trends with little thought to ratios or formulas or face shapes. Just the hat industry making sure people kept buying hats.

 

[tropicalbob]

As was mentioned above, it's all about the mirror. Unlike other articles of clothing, a hat either suits you or it doesn't. For me, it's an immediate thing and it's all about whether or not it suits my face and head.

 

[Zombie_61]

I have an amazing formula ... find a mirror and judge for yourself

100%. Hat "rules" and "formulas" are for the kind of people who buy their clothes at Old Navy simply because they have no individual sense of style and shop there so they will look like their friends and "fit in". If you like a hat and it fits comfortably, wear it and forget about what anyone else thinks.