Formal Wear Primer

[Marc Chevalier]

Just because you like those gentlemen, does not mean that they are style or fashion authorities.

Very true. None of the Hollywood actors mentioned were seen as fashion arbiters in their day.


Only one Hollywood star was considered, without any doubt, a perfectly 'correct' fashion leader who was worthy of emulation: Adolphe Menjou.

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[jamespowers]

Very true. None of the Hollywood actors mentioned were seen as fashion arbiters in their day. .

Nice to see that nothing has changed in 60 years.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Don't stray, we're talking about DJ's.

Okay, let me refine my response. By your argument, because vintage Correct Dress Charts don’t specifically prohibit the colours, patterns and fabrics of common lounge suits to be used in dinner jackets then they are all theoretically acceptable. It is not logical to argue that items can be considered to be included in a list simply because they are not specifically excluded.

Have you any comment on the garb (most likely bespoke) that these elite gentlemen are wearing?

Vice President John N. Garner, 1932:

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/E...6804ACME&cat=20,15,19&cf=2&mt=2&caller=search

Arturo Toscanini, 1947:

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/E...00001594&cat=20,15,19&cf=2&mt=2&caller=search

Jimmy Stewart, 1956:

While these gentleman all seem to be very accomplished in their fields, in my opinion their taste in dinner jackets is distinctively pedestrian. The notch lapels on their tuxedos lack the flair of the peak or the swank of the shawl.

But I am more interested in discussing this topic from an objective perspective rather than a subjective one (because God knows there are already enough people weighing in on the latter argument). Objectively, these photos are the exception that prove the rule: For every vintage NL photo that exists there are at least a dozen PL and SC photos to counteract it.

The original question was whether notch lapels were traditionally correct on DJs and the evidence clearly indicates that they were not accepted by the vast majority of dressers nor the vast majority of etiquette authorities. Consequently, they were generally considered inappropriate.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The original question was whether notch lapels were considered correct on DJs and the evidence clearly indicates that they were not accepted by the vast majority of dressers nor the vast majority of etiquette authorities. Consequently, they were generally considered incorrect or inappropriate.

In a nutshell: true.


There was a time when certain Fedora Loungers insisted that notch lapel dinner jackets did not exist before the 1970s. It took a while for some of us to convince these fellows that, yes, notch lapel dinner jackets had been around for a LONG time.


However...I never thought, and never said at any time, that notch lapel dinner jackets were considered 'correct' by those in the know. IMO, back then they weren't. Apparently they are now.


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[Marc Chevalier]

I've told my friends that the only notched lapels I wanted to see on them were on a smoking jacket if they chose to wear one of those ...

What on earth makes you think that notched lapels are correct on a smoking jacket? They definitely aren't.


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[Evan Everhart]

What on earth makes you think that notched lapels are correct on a smoking jacket? They definitely aren't.


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I've seen some old images from way back when, though most were shawl lapel.

 

[Orgetorix]

I've seen some old images from way back when, though most were shawl lapel.

But old images of notch-lapel dinner jackets from way back when don't count the same way, right?

Great. Just making sure we had that straight.

 

[Cobden]

The thing that occurs to me is that some of those wearing it back in the day may have been purposefully bucking the rules, or had a personel preference for NLDJ "rules and tradition be damned". I know I certainly don't follow the black tie code to the letter, albiet only in a couple of aspects, for reasons of personell preference

 

[Evan Everhart]

But old images of notch-lapel dinner jackets from way back when don't count the same way, right?

Great. Just making sure we had that straight.

I also sent this invite out to my friends before I knew any better about these things. I may have been about fourteen at the time. I still hated and knew that notched lapel dinner jackets were not correct wear. My grandfather taught me well. (he never wore a smoking jacket, but my father always wore one of three velvet jackets which he dubiously - I am now aware - referred to as "smoking jackets"). Regardless of that, I don't think that I've ever specifically seen a comment for or against a certain type of lapel in anything like Post etc. while I have consistently seen references against notched lapel dinner jackets Mr. Sarcasm. Have a nice day.

 

[MisterGrey]

So here's where I'll express what perhaps will be seen as my ignorance: What makes something "proper?" It's to my understanding that what we today consider proper and improper was canonized, rather arbitrarily, by individuals considered either already conventionally well dressed, or simply by socially influential, upwardly mobile individuals whom the public wanted to emulate by virtue of their social influence and upward mobility. That is to say it seems that, had, for example, Cary Grant or Adolphe Menjou been an aficionado of the NLDJ, there'd be no stigma against it whatsoever here at the Lounge.

I'm not going to argue that notches look nicer than shawls or peaks, because I don't think they do. But I still think it looks nice; and it's not because I'm "misinformed," it's because I think it looks nice. And properly fitting, black, NLDJ with all other components in place is still a dinner jacket, and, as has been demonstrated, period appropriate; a minority of men may have favored them, but the percentages cited in this thread (4%, 9%, 6%) are a much more significant minority than a handful of eccentrics or poseur celebrities.

To belittle someone's otherwise keen dress because of the cut of their lapels seems, to me, to be taking the fun out of vintage dressing. I'm really up on vintage styles, but just as I wouldn't want people laughing and making snide remarks about me because I'm wearing a hat and/or not dressed according to today's fashions, I likewise am not about to point fingers at fellow vintage dressers because they do not live up to certain arbitrary standards. Say that the NLDJ makes a certain statement-- that the wearer is rakish, an eccentric, that it perhaps identifies them as a devotee of jazz or beat poetry-- but to say that the individual is somehow sartorially or socially inferior is in bad taste, anathema to a spirit of kinship, and exactly the kind of close-minded elitism that loungers have faced and fought against by sporting their attire of choice in the modern era.

 

[Orgetorix]

So here's where I'll express what perhaps will be seen as my ignorance: What makes something "proper?" It's to my understanding that what we today consider proper and improper was canonized, rather arbitrarily, by individuals considered either already conventionally well dressed, or simply by socially influential, upwardly mobile individuals whom the public wanted to emulate by virtue of their social influence and upward mobility. That is to say it seems that, had, for example, Cary Grant or Adolphe Menjou been an aficionado of the NLDJ, there'd be no stigma against it whatsoever here at the Lounge.

I'm not going to argue that notches look nicer than shawls or peaks, because I don't think they do. But I still think it looks nice; and it's not because I'm "misinformed," it's because I think it looks nice. And properly fitting, black, NLDJ with all other components in place is still a dinner jacket, and, as has been demonstrated, period appropriate; a minority of men may have favored them, but the percentages cited in this thread (4%, 9%, 6%) are a much more significant minority than a handful of eccentrics or poseur celebrities.

To belittle someone's otherwise keen dress because of the cut of their lapels seems, to me, to be taking the fun out of vintage dressing. I'm really up on vintage styles, but just as I wouldn't want people laughing and making snide remarks about me because I'm wearing a hat and/or not dressed according to today's fashions, I likewise am not about to point fingers at fellow vintage dressers because they do not live up to certain arbitrary standards. Say that the NLDJ makes a certain statement-- that the wearer is rakish, an eccentric, that it perhaps identifies them as a devotee of jazz or beat poetry-- but to say that the individual is somehow sartorially or socially inferior is in bad taste, anathema to a spirit of kinship, and exactly the kind of close-minded elitism that loungers have faced and fought against by sporting their attire of choice in the modern era.

:eusa_clap

 

[Marc Chevalier]

So here's where I'll express what perhaps will be seen as my ignorance: What makes something "proper?" It's to my understanding that what we today consider proper and improper was canonized, rather arbitrarily, by individuals considered either already conventionally well dressed, or simply by socially influential, upwardly mobile individuals whom the public wanted to emulate by virtue of their social influence and upward mobility. That is to say it seems that, had, for example, Cary Grant or Adolphe Menjou been an aficionado of the NLDJ, there'd be no stigma against it whatsoever here at the Lounge.

I'm not going to argue that notches look nicer than shawls or peaks, because I don't think they do. But I still think it looks nice; and it's not because I'm "misinformed," it's because I think it looks nice. And properly fitting, black, NLDJ with all other components in place is still a dinner jacket, and, as has been demonstrated, period appropriate; a minority of men may have favored them, but the percentages cited in this thread (4%, 9%, 6%) are a much more significant minority than a handful of eccentrics or poseur celebrities.

To belittle someone's otherwise keen dress because of the cut of their lapels seems, to me, to be taking the fun out of vintage dressing. I'm really up on vintage styles, but just as I wouldn't want people laughing and making snide remarks about me because I'm wearing a hat and/or not dressed according to today's fashions, I likewise am not about to point fingers at fellow vintage dressers because they do not live up to certain arbitrary standards. Say that the NLDJ makes a certain statement-- that the wearer is rakish, an eccentric, that it perhaps identifies them as a devotee of jazz or beat poetry-- but to say that the individual is somehow sartorially or socially inferior is in bad taste, anathema to a spirit of kinship, and exactly the kind of close-minded elitism that loungers have faced and fought against by sporting their attire of choice in the modern era.

A beautifully written, superbly expressed statement. One of the best I've ever read on the Lounge. :eusa_clap


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[scotrace]

Only one Hollywood star was considered, without any doubt, a perfectly 'correct' fashion leader who was worthy of emulation: Adolphe Menjou.

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Noel Coward? Cary Grant? Douglas Fairbanks Jr.?

 

[Matt Deckard]

Adolph lead then stopped. Stuck in the 20s for all eternity.

 

[scotrace]

I'm working with a fellow (onstage) whose costume is a tailcoat (as is mine, and another co-star's). But the former's tailcoat (rented, modern) has a shawl collar.

 

[Orgetorix]

I'm working with a fellow (onstage) whose costume is a tailcoat (as is mine, and another co-star's). But the former's tailcoat (rented, modern) has a shawl collar.

When is the production set?

 

[dhermann1]

As I mentioned above, I saw a shawl collar tail coat in "Top Hat" the other day. Surprised me, but it looked cool.

 

[David V]

The Classic Style was developed, over time, by men who exhibited good taste and emulated by men who could recognize it.

 

[scotrace]

I have to retract. The other tailcoat had a notched, not shawl, collar. I checked back to the photos.
It's A Broadway Christmas Carol, so the tailcoat costume is set in any modern day. A parody/musical.

 

[Orgetorix]

Sorry...even I can't defend a notch lapel on a tailcoat. :eusa_doh: