Flipping jackets and the spirit of the lounge

[Kubatu]

There's an ongoing discussion on jacket flipping in a classified listing right now. I think it's an interesting topic and one I've wondered what TFL's attitude would be, as I do a decent amount of flipping when I have the time - although typically on Ebay. Regardless of one's thoughts towards the particular classified example, I think it would be better to shift the discussion here so it's not at risk for removal (keeping general TFL rules in mind) and further derailment.

 

[Monitor]

Absolutely.

You got what I want? I'll pay you what you want. Simple as that. I don't need money, man. Everybody got money!

 

[Kubatu]

Just to quickly summarize my general thoughts:

Flipping is a common marketplace transaction and happens a lot. I've gotten some jackets at steal prices, but when I sell them here, I do my best to adhere to the market value. For example, if I got a Bates jacket for $100, and most people are selling them for $200, that's where I'll list my jacket as well. The one exception I will note is that if I've bought a jacket from TFL and later resell it (which I have done once), I'll list it in the classifieds at the same price I purchased it.

That said, I think TFL is a little distinct from general marketplaces. This community doesn't exist for people to make money, but to further foster the interest in leather jackets, particularly vintage jackets. in I've never considered the classified listing to be profit adverse, but in the spirit of the community, I think there is sometimes a limit to how much money someone is trying to make. There's a reason why, internally, I would not be okay with people buying TFL-discounted jackets here and trying to resell them for more. It may be a good business practice, but it doesn't really align with the values this community seems to prioritize.

So in short: a little flipping is okay, a little profit is okay, but for me personally, I think that purely profit driven flipping leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[ton312]

I’m not for that here. I’ll save profiteering for the wolves on eBay. The other reality is I can count on one finger where I haven’t LOST $ on a sale. For me not losing too much is an absolute win.
I also think there is some degree of being reasonable. A reasonable mark up is one thing. It’s fairly easy to spot the other kind.

 

[ton312]

One other reason. This forum is free. It costs the seller nothing. No taxes, no listing fees…is it in the spirit of a free forum (where the buyer primarily assumes all the risk) to attempt to profiteer off other members? Hell no.

A mark up for work done, time spent, etc is one thing. To straight flip at two and three times the price paid is just straight straw man, shuck and jive, bullshit behavior. Doesn’t belong here iMO.

 

[MrProper]

Just got what this is all about. Therefore write here also my 2cent

I think if someone was lucky and could make a bargain and now wants to resell this at a profit, why not? Supply and demand regulates the price. If the price doesn't seem reasonable then it won't sell, otherwise it will.
Possibly I would be annoyed if I knew the low purchase price, but not because the seller made a profit, but because I myself am not able to grab a bargain. Lol
Anyway, I'm a lousy businessman myself and have always sold at a loss so far. But I begrudge anyone who has more skill there. The market regulates it. And we're not talking about basic foodstuffs here.

I would like to add... suppose I sell something at a friendship price, e.g. here or to a friend, and profit is made from it, then that would already annoy me, because the friendship price is usually granted under other assumptions. At least with me.

 

[Marc mndt]

So how do we feel about this?

Original listing :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...arnstormer-jacket-sz-m-40.106621/post-2886181

Now listed for more than three times the money :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/ralph-lauren-barnstormer-sz-m.109829/post-2974609

 

[ton312]

So how do we feel about this?

Original listing :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...arnstormer-jacket-sz-m-40.106621/post-2886181

Now listed for more than three times the money :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/ralph-lauren-barnstormer-sz-m.109829/post-2974609

Apparently I’ve done it all wrong from the start.

 

[Bushman]

One other reason. This forum is free. It costs the seller nothing. No taxes, no listing fees…is it in the spirit of a free forum (where the buyer primarily assumes all the risk) to attempt to profiteer off other members? Hell no.

A mark up for work done, time spent, etc is one thing. To straight flip at two and three times the price paid is just straight straw man, shuck and jive, bullshit behavior. Doesn’t belong here iMO.

I see this happen all the time in the horror memorabilia collecting community. People will send items to artists in the hobby to be repainted, or restored, and then turn around and sell it a week after getting it back, sometimes claiming they saw another piece they wanted more. It's borderline abuse, because I know these artists aren't charging a quarter of what their product is being flipped for, and they have waitlists that are months, sometimes years long because of the pile up of work. It's a real shame what flippers do to collecting communities, because not only are they abusing the good nature of the hobbyists and creators, but as a side effect they drive the prices of everything up through artificial inflation. People who don't know better see items being sold all over eBay for over a thousand dollars and think they'll get that for theirs too.

 

[Kubatu]

So how do we feel about this?

Original listing :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...arnstormer-jacket-sz-m-40.106621/post-2886181

Now listed for more than three times the money :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/ralph-lauren-barnstormer-sz-m.109829/post-2974609

IMO, this is the type of flipping that really goes against the spirit of the lounge. If you buy something here for a good price, you should be willing to sell it for a similar fair price. Maybe not identical, I get there is time involved and shipping expenses to consider, but it's not the sort of thing you should just crank the price on each time it moves owner.

It's even more egregious than the example that had everyone riled up because at least that was an Ebay find. This is something discounted for TFL community and then drastically marked up to the same community.

 

[ton312]

I see this happen all the time in the horror memorabilia collecting community. People will send items to artists in the hobby to be repainted, or restored, and then turn around and sell it a week after getting it back, sometimes claiming they saw another piece they wanted more. It's borderline abuse, because I know these artists aren't charging a quarter of what their product is being flipped for, and they have waitlists that are months, sometimes years long because of the pile up of work. It's a real shame what flippers do to collecting communities, because not only are they abusing the good nature of the hobbyists and creators, but as a side effect they drive the prices of everything up through artificial inflation. People who don't know better see items being sold all over eBay for over a thousand dollars and think they'll get that for theirs too.

Great point and post. I mean I get it if you put some work into restoring something or you’ve done something to increase value. I also understand getting a good deal and passing along that deal with a slight bump. But straight flippers for pure profit really do ruin the spirit. Perfect example. I spent an entire week taking this:

To this:

Repaired numerous busted seams, busted Halfbelt, conditioned, cleaned the leather and polished the hardware and couldn’t even get a measly $75 over what I paid. Donated it for repro purposes in the end.

Folks buying stuff dirt cheap and then immediately trying to flip it for a profit? Do that somewhere else. This market doesn’t want you. I would say if nothing else, recent developments will bring light to those attempting to fleece other members. They’ll
out themselves in fact.

 

[JMax]

Profit is cool. Strutting around the classifieds like Gordon Gecko is no bueno. Anyways, I can’t see how a member sustains that behavior long term.

 

[Will Zach]

So how do we feel about this?

Original listing :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...arnstormer-jacket-sz-m-40.106621/post-2886181

Now listed for more than three times the money :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/ralph-lauren-barnstormer-sz-m.109829/post-2974609

Against the spirit of the Lodge. I once sold a jacket for about a hundred bucks more than I got it for from an esteemed Lounger (a great deal) because I needed some funds. I gave that Lounger a heads up lest he thought I was flipping. Still feel bad about it. Normally I try to sell it at cost, but like Ton, I always lose some money on those deals. Luckily, not big sums.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Flipping is ok with me.

I look at the Classifieds here all the time. If I think it's too much money I just walk away. Every now and then something special pops up and price is fair and someone beats me to it. Just life. We are all adults here.

 

[NYDRH]

Overall I'm in the camp of the price is the price that the market will bear. And as long as no one is lying or misrepresenting the item's condition(like faulty zippers), the owner can sell for whatever they would like. Yes, when it's an immediate flip it appears to be in bad taste but nobody is obligated to purchase it even if you really like it. And if you think the seller is of disrepute than you are probably better off not dealing with them.

The one thing I would add to this discussion is that some of these listings are priced at what I would agree are exorbitant prices and while it is eye popping particularly if you think or know they've recently sold for less here or elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it's actually going to sell at that ask. And I would venture that it actually never does.

eBay for better or worse is the equalizer, the clearinghouse. They get the most eyeballs. If an item has been on eBay at auction for a week and only garners say $500-600 worth of bids it's unlikely there's an arb out there to 3x your money given that everyone here is watching those same auctions. Occasionally I've seen a fixed price eBay listing that I was watching get negotiated and disappear only to see that item pop up here or similar a week or two later, that's less transparent but I could have done the same in theory and sometimes people genuinely intended to wear it but it didn't work. 99% of people here do enough searching to check the major selling platforms and are well informed on relative price.

I would also add that there's tax and shipping so that $500-600 jacket is really closer to $700 and if he was able to get even $900 that's $200 profit for arguably several hours (5-6) worth of work, nobody's getting rich doing that. The $1500 ask is probably more of anchoring technic in negotiation to let the buyers know he isn't interested in just selling for $600 given everything I mentioned above. Sometimes you list something for what you think is a fair price and inevitably you get several offers where every buyer just tries to knock $50-100 off the price so to deal with that people choose to just start higher. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, hence the market.

On ebay I use the saved search feature in the app, it takes me five sec to see what's new in any particular search and I did see the "Helen of Troy" that launched this discussion. I would have bought it myself had I thought I could have used it for anything except a wind sail. It's a really nice jacket for someone that it would fit although deerskin gets no love™.

There are some other forms of selling I would call shady behavior that I've come across but in general I think the mkt is the mkt and if this jacket was my size and I missed I would pay more for it than the ebay auction if I really wanted it maybe not 3x but more and I think it would work out.

 

[Boyo]

There are a lot of places to sell online… use those sites to make any reasonable or unreasonable profit. The classifieds here are based on mutual respect.. I always pay by and accept PayPal friends and family, risks and all, but I’m very comfortable doing so here because we all “know each other” .
on more than a few occasions some of us have listed jackets here for free for these very reasons.
no one is compelled to list a jacket they have for sale here on TFL, but if you do keep the brotherhood in mind and price it accordingly.

 

[Craig from Craigslist]

IMO it's hard to see how that would work out for anyone doing it repeatedly in the long-term. This site is a community of hobbyists and the spirit of the Classifieds feels geared more toward passing along reasonably priced pieces to those who share the interest. I'd feel kind of crummy if a jacket I sold several weeks ago showed up on here for 3x the price.

However,

The classifieds don't exist in a vacuum. For any jacket we see on here it's very easy to Google it or check old listings on eBay. Because of that, I don't necessarily get concerned anyone is getting outright ripped off on this site, assuming there's no deception about what's being sold. If there's a buyer, the item isn't overpriced. I guess my feelings on flipping are kind of complicated but if I notice a specific user showing a pattern of flipping, I'd probably just not like any of their posts in the "What Jacket Are You Wearing Today" thread lmao. Sue me, I'm petty!

 

[ton312]

Overall I'm in the camp of the price is the price that the market will bear. And as long as no one is lying or misrepresenting the item's condition(like faulty zippers), the owner can sell for whatever they would like. Yes, when it's an immediate flip it appears to be in bad taste but nobody is obligated to purchase it even if you really like it. And if you think the seller is of disrepute than you are probably better off not dealing with them.

The one thing I would add to this discussion is that some of these listings are priced at what I would agree are exorbitant prices and while it is eye popping particularly if you think or know they've recently sold for less here or elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it's actually going to sell at that ask. And I would venture that it actually never does.

eBay for better or worse is the equalizer, the clearinghouse. They get the most eyeballs. If an item has been on eBay at auction for a week and only garners say $500-600 worth of bids it's unlikely there's an arb out there to 3x your money given that everyone here is watching those same auctions. Occasionally I've seen a fixed price eBay listing that I was watching get negotiated and disappear only to see that item pop up here or similar a week or two later, that's less transparent but I could have done the same in theory and sometimes people genuinely intended to wear it but it didn't work. 99% of people here do enough searching to check the major selling platforms and are well informed on relative price.

I would also add that there's tax and shipping so that $500-600 jacket is really closer to $700 and if he was able to get even $900 that's $200 profit for arguably several hours (5-6) worth of work, nobody's getting rich doing that. The $1500 ask is probably more of anchoring technic in negotiation to let the buyers know he isn't interested in just selling for $600 given everything I mentioned above. Sometimes you list something for what you think is a fair price and inevitably you get several offers where every buyer just tries to knock $50-100 off the price so to deal with that people choose to just start higher. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, hence the market.

On ebay I use the saved search feature in the app, it takes me five sec to see what's new in any particular search and I did see the "Helen of Troy" that launched this discussion. I would have bought it myself had I thought I could have used it for anything except a wind sail. It's a really nice jacket for someone that it would fit although deerskin gets no love™.

There are some other forms of selling I would call shady behavior that I've come across but in general I think the mkt is the mkt and if this jacket was my size and I missed I would pay more for it than the ebay auction if I really wanted it maybe not 3x but more and I think it would work out.

You make a good point about setting the price high enough to be negotiated down to within reason. There are also tire kickers. That’s a story for another thread….

 

[photo2u]

Flipping is ok with me.

I look at the Classifieds here all the time. If I think it's too much money I just walk away. Every now and then something special pops up and price is fair and someone beats me to it. Just life. We are all adults here.

Personally, I often check. The trusted members always have nice jackets for sale and trade. Some of my best buys have come from the forum members.

 

[MrProper]

So how do we feel about this?

Original listing :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...arnstormer-jacket-sz-m-40.106621/post-2886181

Now listed for more than three times the money :

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/ralph-lauren-barnstormer-sz-m.109829/post-2974609

Not a nice touch, I would say.
But ultimately it only says something about the person. In this small community, this approach will certainly not be successful in the long term.
However, it must also be said here that if a buyer is found, then it was probably okay from a market point of view. Will someone like that become my friend? Probably not.