First ever crime fiction book?

[Helen Troy]

I`m sure I`m not the lover of crime fiction books here, so I though somebody would like to solve a little mystery with me. I am trying to find out what book can be called the first ever crime fiction literature? Of course, it is not easy to agree upon this, partly because there are so many definitions of "crime fiction". My definition is a story, about a crime, where the investigation and solving of the crime is the main point of the story. Of course, the book can also have other important messages and motives, but they are not more important than the solving of the crime itself.

The oldest crime fiction book I have ever come across, is the Norwegian book "The murder of machine builder Roolfsen" from 1840. That is one year before "The murders in the Rue Morgue", witch is often credited as the first ever crime fiction. I am curious: Does anybody know about any older crime fiction? Any points I am missing? I would like to know your wiews!

 

[Harp]

Aeschylus' Oresteia?

 

[Helen Troy]

Well, the caracters seems to be much more interested in killing other killers than actually solving anything....

I should also have specified " oldest modern crime fiction". That aside, the story about Cain and Abel might be fitting, as God himself investigates the murder. But I feel that having an omnipotent detective is cheating.

 

[carebear]

Well, the caracters seems to be much more interested in killing other killers than actually solving anything....

I should also have specified " oldest modern crime fiction". That aside, the story about Cain and Abel might be fitting, as God himself investigates the murder. But I feel that having an omnipotent detective is cheating.

Well, he did use just standard interrogation, no mumbo-jumbo.

I remember reading a comprehensive guide to detective fiction that had a couple contenders beside Rue Morgue. For the life of me I can't remember the book's title or its candidates.

Which makes this post not very helpful.

So I apologize.

I'll just go now.

Sorry.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Off topic - but....fftopic:

Did anyone ever watch those Brother Cadfael mysteries? Fascinating to imagine medieval crime busting! -dixon cannon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Cadfael

 

[Harp]

Well, the caracters seems to be much more interested in killing other killers than actually solving anything....

I should also have specified " oldest modern crime fiction". That aside, the story about Cain and Abel might be fitting, as God himself investigates the murder. But I feel that having an omnipotent detective is cheating.

Well, I just took a stab at it....

 

[Harp]

I should also have specified " oldest modern crime fiction". That aside, the story about Cain and Abel might be fitting, as God himself investigates the murder. But I feel that having an omnipotent detective is cheating.

When I was in law school, Abel's murder was assigned reading; along
with a prepared defense of Cain. The genesis of motive for murder. lol

 

[Polka Dot]

Hey, a question that hits my area of interest exactly.

I'm no expert (yet), but I do know that there is a relatively clear split between pre-19th century crime novels, in which the story is told somewhat romantically from the criminal's point of view, and the novels I believe you are speaking of, i.e. those that focus on detection of the crime.

There is a book you may wish to check out, as it is widely considered the starting point of the French "roman policier"/detective novel. It's the Memoirs of Vidocq (1828), which chronicles/fictionalizes the life of Eugène François Vidocq. Vidocq initially went for a life of crime, landing himself in prison several times before deciding to make good. He became an informant for the police, then a detective, and then the first director of France's Sûreté Nationale. The memoirs are an important development in crime fiction because of the focus on the creation of modern detective methods, as well as because Vidocq himself became the model for many future fictional detectives, including Emile Gaboriau's LeCoq.

I am definitely going to check out the Norwegian book you mentioned, Helen, if I can find it in a language I can read! I think Poe is cited so often as the originator of the modern crime novel mostly because his work was so influential for future novelists, but I am not at all surprised you've found an earlier example of the genre.

 

[Harp]

I think you hit the proverbial nail's head, Polka Dot! :eusa_clap

Now that you mention Vidocq, it would be interesting to know if Poe
might have read his memoir before penning The Murders in the Rue Morgue.
I recall hearing somewhere that Poe had been influenced
by an actual European detective's investigative method.
Perhaps this influence was Vidocq.

 

[BegintheBeguine]

Off topic - but....fftopic:

Did anyone ever watch those Brother Cadfael mysteries? Fascinating to imagine medieval crime busting! -dixon cannon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Cadfael

Read and seen 'em all. Plus whatever the authoress wrote under both names. My dad taught Elderhostels about Cadfael and as I lived with him I'd help him prepare. He could teach anyone anything; even people who thought they had no interest in that topic went away avid fans.

 

[Helen Troy]

Thank you, Polka Dot, I must absolutely check out Vidocq. I looked him up just now, and wow! What a character! Among other things, I learned that he was even suspected of arranging some of the cases he solved in his work!

Now that you mention Vidocq, it would be interesting to know if Poe
might have read his memoir before penning The Murders in the Rue Morgue.
I recall hearing somewhere that Poe had been influenced
by an actual European detective's investigative method.
Perhaps this influence was Vidocq.

I read that the great, fictional detective Maigret is probably inspired by Vidocq, he even shares his first name, Jules, with Vidocqs "alias". (Mr. Jules.) His memoirs became really famous and even a play about him was played in London in 1829, so it`s likely that he has inspired more writers than we can count.....

Some definition revision: I`m looking for "the first modern detective story". That is more presise, there are many crime fiction stories, but it is the introduction of a character who investigates and solves a crime that seperates this genre from the rest. (The detective does of course not have to be detective of profession.)

fftopic: Is that Nancy Drew in your avatar, Polka Dot?

 

[Polka Dot]

fftopic: Indeed it is, Helen. Now that you point it out, I wonder if my childhood love of her books subconsciously steered me towards wanting to study crime fiction. [huh]

 

[Jack Scorpion]

fftopic: Indeed it is, Helen. Now that you point it out, I wonder if my childhood love of her books subconsciously steered me towards wanting to study crime fiction. [huh]

I was into Encyclopedia Brown and the Hardy Boys myself.

 

[Dan G]

The Hardy Boys was King

 

[carebear]

The Hardy Boys was King

There's a very funny, though profane so I can't link to it, photoshop of a Hardy Boys cover at Something Awful.

The gist is...

The Mystery of the Haunted Lighthouse... aw heck with it, it's smugglers, it's always freakin' smugglers.

 

[Helen Troy]

I it true that there are plans of a Hardy Men film, with Ben Stiller and Tom Cruise as the grown up, bitter versions of the Hardy Boys? I`m not sure if it is a great or an awful idea!

Ah, Nancy Drew..... She inspired me when I, at the age of 9, started my own private detective agency. I singel-handedly solved the family mystery: "The case of the disappering caramel pudding." And later on, the Detective Clubs with other kids. Those were the days!

Anybody else here was in a detective club as a child?

 

[TaxiGirl]

There was something about reading Nancy Drew as a child that made me want to hit her. I think she was just too perfect. My husband, though, collects the early-edition Nancy Drews. So we occasionally get into arguments about this.

I read Trixie Belden instead, as a pre-teen. And every Agatha Christie I could get my hands on.

But right now I'm very very very interested in Lord Peter Wimsey and Harriet Vane. (As may be apparent from the signature?)

 

[BegintheBeguine]

When I was a child I read one Trixie Belden too. In it they visited someone who was in a wheelchair and described the kitchen had been designed with everything lowered and I think that was quite sensitive and kind for the time period. Keep meaning to order some more from the library. I'm reading a Vane/Wimsey right now, I love those.
3 of us girls had a detective club. We met in a space under the neighbor's basement steps.

 

[carebear]

My buddy and I had to deal with a distressing lack of crimes and mysteries in our neighborhood.

We did find a lost dog once, but that was search and rescue, not detection, and we waived the standard fee.

 

[Dan G]

My brother and I set out to find the sweets thief of our neighborhood. We never did find me... heh heh

We too found a lost dog once, but we kept it... (whoever she belonged to definitely was not looking for her) She was the best we ever had! Her name was Bob, and she was with us for 17 years!