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Finds and Deals - Leather Jacket Edition
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mendelboaz
One Too Many
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Guacamolee. Luckily too small for me.
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Claybertrand
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I think a lot of what is being said regarding Vintage vs. Reproduction and the notion that Vintage prices are dropping pertains more specifically to the highest or at least the highER end of vintage. Yes when you are up in the $1200-$2000 range of jackets, there is substantially more risk buying a 70 year old piece off of a few pictures from a website than buying a repro. But Vintage jackets in this price range are edging into Collector territory not necessarily the realm of buy to wear often (or ever for that matter).
A $1200 Lost Worlds jacket has more of a quality value component and less of a collector component IMO. I mean to say that the prices paid for a LW vs. a Buco for example are perhaps being paid for different reasons and therefore sort of Apples and Oranges to compare the two. If you have a person asking how to best spend their $1200-$2000, you would want to know what their motivation is to answer that question for them. Obviously, Collectors are the minority so most people would probably say they want a quality jacket they can wear. But whether the jacket holds value or goes up in price is a different factor to consider. Some people (probably MOST) don't have an eye on future value when they buy things. Personally, future value is not a motivating factor for me when I buy old jackets. At the same time, I do know that what I'm buying is not made anymore and isn't found in abundance but I don't necessarily see it in monetary terms. I am not investing in leather jacket futures here.
I think that there will always be value in old things that are not made anymore. The fact that the Millennial Masses would rather wear Faux Leather Hoodies or whatever is looking at it upside down to a degree. Its not what the masses will pay for things. Rather it IS what the Niche market will pay. One marketing philosophy is that the devout few will be more passionate about their niche than the masses will be about mainstream products. I am not speaking of how this translates to profitability. My point is that in general, people who are hyper enthusiasts will still pay for special things regardless of how desirable these things may not be to the masses.
Like everything else, it comes down to your personal reasons for paying this money for these jackets and how you personally value them. I don't think any of us has any illusions that we are somehow cornering the market on old leather garments and setting the stage for a financial windfall later in life.
For me, buying a Lost Worlds jacket for $1200 is not a hobby---and there's nothing wrong with it not being a hobby because that's not the point of buying the LW. Trying to hunt down old Bucos, Monarchs, Hercules, Californians, Sportclads, Guidemasters, Block, Ralph Pugh, Rich Sher, etc. that might actually fit that you rarely see is a challenge you may never be able to succeed at and this makes it more of a hobby in my mind. Conversely, hoping to somehow find a grail jacket that is 70 years old that is in decent shape and fits well AND is in excellent condition is not the absolute that buying the $1200 LW is. With the LW, nothing is left to chance---But then CHANCE is not the goal for the LW buyer. You are buying something that you want and that will fit a need for you and the certainty of those things along with the known quality is behind the motivation of that buyer---hence the dichotomy --- the Hobbyist/Collector vs. the SANE person who just wants a Cool well made jacket and has the funds for it.
Really interesting dialogue on this topic. I think great points have been made by others I just think we may be talking about two different things to a degree.
A $1200 Lost Worlds jacket has more of a quality value component and less of a collector component IMO. I mean to say that the prices paid for a LW vs. a Buco for example are perhaps being paid for different reasons and therefore sort of Apples and Oranges to compare the two. If you have a person asking how to best spend their $1200-$2000, you would want to know what their motivation is to answer that question for them. Obviously, Collectors are the minority so most people would probably say they want a quality jacket they can wear. But whether the jacket holds value or goes up in price is a different factor to consider. Some people (probably MOST) don't have an eye on future value when they buy things. Personally, future value is not a motivating factor for me when I buy old jackets. At the same time, I do know that what I'm buying is not made anymore and isn't found in abundance but I don't necessarily see it in monetary terms. I am not investing in leather jacket futures here.
I think that there will always be value in old things that are not made anymore. The fact that the Millennial Masses would rather wear Faux Leather Hoodies or whatever is looking at it upside down to a degree. Its not what the masses will pay for things. Rather it IS what the Niche market will pay. One marketing philosophy is that the devout few will be more passionate about their niche than the masses will be about mainstream products. I am not speaking of how this translates to profitability. My point is that in general, people who are hyper enthusiasts will still pay for special things regardless of how desirable these things may not be to the masses.
Like everything else, it comes down to your personal reasons for paying this money for these jackets and how you personally value them. I don't think any of us has any illusions that we are somehow cornering the market on old leather garments and setting the stage for a financial windfall later in life.
For me, buying a Lost Worlds jacket for $1200 is not a hobby---and there's nothing wrong with it not being a hobby because that's not the point of buying the LW. Trying to hunt down old Bucos, Monarchs, Hercules, Californians, Sportclads, Guidemasters, Block, Ralph Pugh, Rich Sher, etc. that might actually fit that you rarely see is a challenge you may never be able to succeed at and this makes it more of a hobby in my mind. Conversely, hoping to somehow find a grail jacket that is 70 years old that is in decent shape and fits well AND is in excellent condition is not the absolute that buying the $1200 LW is. With the LW, nothing is left to chance---But then CHANCE is not the goal for the LW buyer. You are buying something that you want and that will fit a need for you and the certainty of those things along with the known quality is behind the motivation of that buyer---hence the dichotomy --- the Hobbyist/Collector vs. the SANE person who just wants a Cool well made jacket and has the funds for it.
Really interesting dialogue on this topic. I think great points have been made by others I just think we may be talking about two different things to a degree.
I think a lot of what is being said regarding Vintage vs. Reproduction and the notion that Vintage prices are dropping pertains more specifically to the highest or at least the highER end of vintage. Yes when you are up in the $1200-$2000 range of jackets, there is substantially more risk buying a 70 year old piece off of a few pictures from a website than buying a repro. But Vintage jackets in this price range are edging into Collector territory not necessarily the realm of buy to wear often (or ever for that matter).
All very good points and I agree about the niche market dictating value. The big question for me is, "Is the niche going to shrink in the future, proportionately speaking." In other words, are there going to be less of "us." Gen Z as a whole is much less into physical things(beyond electronics) than past generations, per the chart below.
I am involved in collecting other things, and there has been a distinctive trend. More and more gray hair fills the seats of certain collectible societies and shows. With a shrinking middle class, I am afraid the kids of today are not going to have the disposable income of past generations. And I think most kids growing up in limited income homes today are going to choose a new iphone over a cool baseball card. There will always be rabid collectors...the question is, "How many?"
Bfd70
I'll Lock Up
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- Traverse city
photo2u
Call Me a Cab
- Messages
- 2,356
- Location
- claremont california
I truly think some people are asking unrealistic prices for SOME bucos. If given a choice, I would wear an original over a reproduction. I know that quality is much better now. Having owned many of the so-called premium brands, many of this are also hipe? Jackets like Branded leather and many others label offer excellent value for the price when new. I have several that are beast and just as exceptional quality for a much lower price. For motorcycle riding there are far better choices for protection than the most expensive lost worlds. The reason I wear my buco is that to me, they are cool as hell. Futhermore, originals bring me a sense of nostalgia that are hard to beat. I believe the reason some jackets sell below the reasonable rate is that sellers sometimes sell without doing any research and their asking price clearly reflects it. You know some of us hate that? LOL
Yamahana
One Too Many
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- 1,051
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- Buckeye, Arizona
I'll give that a big AMEN!
Edit: Especially size 42-44-46
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A perfect example, although this jacket looks to be in very good shape. It’s sat in my watch list for a very, very, very long time.
I'll offer a few things to foster discussion. I would think the number of prospective customers for a more modern LW jacket today would be substantially more than a Buco for a number of reasons. Based upon what I have learned on TFL, there are a number of buyers who...
Cross off all of these buyers, and I would think one is left with a rather narrow pool of prospective buyers for an expensive vintage piece. For a wealthy person who won't miss a couple thousand dollars hanging in their closet, it's no big deal waiting to sell it. In today's economy, $2000 is a LOT of money for LOT of people.
This whole business is very risky, especially buying from unknown sellers, sight unseen, based on very subjective descriptions and photos that can be very deceiving. That risk is going to knock out some of the prospective buyers who have the funds, but are risk averse by nature.
- simply prefer repro jackets due to current manufacturing techniques, cool branding, etc
- prefer the look of a newer jacket
- prefer a more modern fit..I've heard more than one Lounger discuss their difficulty getting a good fit with vintage
- like wearing their jackets and would freak out over the thought of wearing something that is somewhat fragile (or perceived as such) and/or is considered irreplaceable
- are too risk averse to drop a couple thousand dollars on a jacket that, if not satisfactory, may require a substantial time to sell, thus tying up funds
- have no interest in having closet queens as cool as a certain jacket might be
Cross off all of these buyers, and I would think one is left with a rather narrow pool of prospective buyers for an expensive vintage piece. For a wealthy person who won't miss a couple thousand dollars hanging in their closet, it's no big deal waiting to sell it. In today's economy, $2000 is a LOT of money for LOT of people.
This whole business is very risky, especially buying from unknown sellers, sight unseen, based on very subjective descriptions and photos that can be very deceiving. That risk is going to knock out some of the prospective buyers who have the funds, but are risk averse by nature.
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I’d argue the thread barely needs to exist at all. Fairly certain we all see the stuff posted here in our own baked in searches. I could be wrong but I’m rarely surprised. Not to say it doesn’t happen on occasion, but it’s exceedingly rare. That could speak to my own obsessive issues though…I’d also never dare post an item here I wanted, they’ve seen it too. Of this I am sure, and they know who they are!
^^
Disagree ton, I regularly see good deals here I would not otherwise find. I guess your search strategy is better than mine. One example is an unlabeled Cal heads-up from @Leather Walker - how the heck do you find unlabeled Cals without wading through piles and piles of crap on ebay? I greatly appreciate all the heads ups here and try to reciprocate when I can. We should try to keep this thread limited to Finds and Deals, as the title suggests.
Disagree ton, I regularly see good deals here I would not otherwise find. I guess your search strategy is better than mine. One example is an unlabeled Cal heads-up from @Leather Walker - how the heck do you find unlabeled Cals without wading through piles and piles of crap on ebay? I greatly appreciate all the heads ups here and try to reciprocate when I can. We should try to keep this thread limited to Finds and Deals, as the title suggests.
jonbuilder
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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- 3,563
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- Grass Valley CA Foothills
I do not care if the youngsters think if I do not look cool. I feel cool and I do get looks and sometimes conversation from attractive women. Makes an old guy energized
jonbuilder
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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- Grass Valley CA Foothills
Well, put and close to my thoughts exactly. I lack your talent to express my thinking
Claybertrand
One Too Many
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You know, you are correct. Even as I myself contributed to this discussion with my own verbose ranty ramble, this is truly a multi faceted topic that could carry its own thread. Someone should start a thread called Vintage vs. Repro - Perspectives and Opinions and then we can all blab about it there. While we do tend veer into OT conversation from time to time in this thread---but this one perhaps is hijacking the Finds and Deals a little too much.
It is an interesting topic --- a sort of self reflection look in the mirror at what each of us gets out of these jackets.
My last comment on this topic is to say I'm with @ton312!!! Let me know where the declining cost Half Belts are hiding!!!
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Real quick, I don’t want Polish Hussars sent to my crib.
I started in the repro camp, now have a foot in each camp, but am sliding quickly into the vintage camp. A big reason I have and will keep the repros I own is the construction, specifically the stitching. Nice and tight for riding. The thing is, I can find a kick ass, high end vintage jacket, send it to Dena or JL to have ALL of it restitched by highly skilled folks, and still be under the cost of repro, sometimes significantly. I do love me some LW though.
I started in the repro camp, now have a foot in each camp, but am sliding quickly into the vintage camp. A big reason I have and will keep the repros I own is the construction, specifically the stitching. Nice and tight for riding. The thing is, I can find a kick ass, high end vintage jacket, send it to Dena or JL to have ALL of it restitched by highly skilled folks, and still be under the cost of repro, sometimes significantly. I do love me some LW though.
photo2u
Call Me a Cab
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- claremont california
Max, The belt made it to house. Thank you brother!
...just a perspective. I like the idea of discussing values/salability of jackets on this thread. It is a great learning experience for newer collectors to see comments/opinions from the experts concerning the jackets featured and why they are/are not desirable to the cognoscente. It is natural that a discussion/debate will sometimes evolve. I've never seen things get that sidetracked. Such discussions seem to come and go pretty quickly and, for me, add to the value of the thread.
