Field Leathers

[Monitor]

How long does it take to make one detailed jacket anyway? I can remember some saying that a machinist makes one jacket a day if everything goes right but I think they had the lining and cutting done by someone else .
So can we calculate how many orders he has taken on to create these lead times ?
When a bigger shop makes you wait 12months with 10 ? machinists but a small shop ?

Yeah, that's what I don't understand either. There are so many videos on Youtube of people making an entire leather jacket in one afternoon. I follow two guys on Insta that post videos where they make a leather jacket entirely by hand in two days!
There are setbacks, of course; You run out of this or that but none of this explains the 2 plus years lead time, especially since none of these makers actually drown in orders. What happens that you suddenly need years to catch up with an order?

ToJ happened because they could no longer pump out, what, 100 jackets a day? But until they could, they did.

 

[Marc mndt]

If I remember correctly Greg once told me he can sew one jacket a day. What costs time though is communicating with customers (some customers literally send hundreds of emails), pattern making and design tweaks. That's why the collabs are so lucrative: standard sizing of one and the same design with the cutting done in bulk.

 

[Bennarion]

 

[cbez]

Same with the PNW bootmakers. If your customers will pay a year in advance with no refunds, why not take it?

Hopefully he's not behind and using next year's payments to pay the bills.

 

[Squirrel_hero]

If I remember correctly Greg once told me he can sew one jacket a day. What costs time though is communicating with customers (some customers literally send hundreds of emails), pattern making and design tweaks. That's why the collabs are so lucrative: standard sizing of one and the same design with the cutting done in bulk.

He posted he was going to allow made to measure for this new collab. Not sure how I feel about that since it’s now been 9 months waiting for my order.. why do these collabs get priority over people who paid almost a year ago or more.. truly frustrating

 

[Bfd70]

That is a fair question to ask him. No answer would definitely put him on the no buy list from me. I’m sure he’s a great guy, but at this point Greg Field and Fields Leather are not the same thing

 

[Marc mndt]

So I'm wondering a couple of things:

1) The question raised by @Squirrel_hero : why are collab jackets prioritized over regular orders?

2) What is the added value of having a 'Carl Murawski' approved type II if it's up to the customer to configure the jacket (choose the leather, lining, thread color, pocket shape). I thought the whole idea behind these CM collabs was to get a jacket that reflects Carl's design vision. Think of the B3 jacket that featured handwarmer pockets because Carl wants his jackets to be practical or whatever.

3) Why use roughout leather when the jacket is fully lined. You might as well use split suede, right?

 

[cbez]

Roughout is still thicker, more durable, and often has a more interesting nap than suede. Also it is probably easier to source quality roughout. Think of suede as the bargain bin scraps.

Regarding the 'collab' you know why; marketing lol.

 

[Marc mndt]

Roughout is still thicker, more durable, and often has a more interesting nap than suede.

Sorry, but why?

Both roughout and suede can be skived down to any thickness.

What makes roughout more durable than suede?

And why is the type of nap a function of roughout leather rather than just the result of how a hide has been sanded down?

 

[cbez]

Sorry, but why?

Both roughout and suede can be skived down to any thickness.

What makes roughout more durable than suede?

And why is the type of nap a function of roughout leather rather than just the result of how a hide has been sanded down?

There are different definitions thrown around, but to me roughout includes the full grain of the skin side. That is the densest, strongest part of the hide. Suede could be a split without that section, or have it sanded down.

Roughout: full grain, flesh side exposed. flesh side may be treated to reduce nap.

Suede: any mystery subsection or split from a hide, with a sanded nap top side

You can have durable, quality suede but in reality it's often a cost saving measure on heavily corrected leather or to use splits that would otherwise be scrap.

As to why the nap is more interesting, the flesh side state starts with heavy natural nap that can be trimmed down. suede is just top grain that's been sanded down. Subjective but I think the flesh is more interesting.

 

[cbez]

For example you won't really see suede with this much nap.

 

[Marc mndt]

There are different definitions thrown around, but to me roughout includes the full grain of the skin side.

This is your definition but to me top grain on one side still qualifies as roughout (as long as the rough/ flesh side of the leather is on the outside)

Roughout: full grain, flesh side exposed. flesh side may be treated to reduce nap.

Suede: any mystery subsection or split from a hide, with a sanded nap top side

Imagine having a full grain, un-split cowhide. An un-split cowhide (rawhide) is between 6mm and 10mm thick, too thick to be used for leather jackets.

So even a full grain roughout jacket is made out of leather that has been split.
Let's say you split the 10mm hide in two, the nap side will look exactly the same on both parts, right?

As to why the nap is more interesting, the flesh side state starts with heavy natural nap that can be trimmed down. suede is just top grain that's been sanded down.

See my comment above, the nap side is one and the same.

For example you won't really see suede with this much nap.

This is a suede jacket Tony once owned. I haven't handled the jacket myself but just by looking at it I can tell that it's more substantial than a lot of top grain jackets I've handled. The fuzzy nap on the collar looks just like the boots you've showed above. Why? Because the outer of this jacket and the outer of your boots are both sides of a split hide.

 

[Aloysius]

suede is just top grain that's been sanded down. Subjective but I think the flesh is more interesting.

I think you're confusing suede and nubuck.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Not to hijack the current field leather delivery issue this post just on my own opinion of rough out vs suede.

I will take rough out or any grain side leather over split suede leather. I had a split suede a1 jacket that had holes and I just posed in it over the years, nothing cool like sliding on pavement, they don’t wear as well as the grain side still attached. There are some fancy expensive split suede leather on the leather retail market I will give you that but more for fashion purpose I assume with the expensive looking shiny nap finishing.

The look and drape is totally different. Roughout (grain on the other side) vs split suede

Close up of fought out (grain on the other side)

close up of split suede

Roughout drape

split suede drape

I understand suede is super easy to wear just like fabric. But in those cases I can just wear fabric. For leather I personally prefer it with the grain side still attached, not the split side. Just personal preference.

 

[cbez]

I think you're confusing suede and nubuck.

you're prolly right I think of those basically interchangeably, a sanded middle section. Nubuck has always been ugly to me.

Imagine having a full grain, un-split cowhide. An un-split cowhide (rawhide) is between 6mm and 10mm thick, too thick to be used for leather jackets.

So even a full grain roughout jacket is made out of leather that has been split.
Let's say you split the 10mm hide in two, the nap side will look exactly the same on both parts, right?

I suspect a lot of beefier 'suede' jackets are probably just roughout, before it became more popular to make the distinction as a marketing tactic.

My point is still that roughout preserves the grain section, which is the densest and strongest part of the leather. If you use a flesh side split, they might look exactly the same on the flesh side but it won't have the skin side supporting it.

You can have suede that does have more of the tighter grain in it, but at that point why not just do roughout? It's usually going to be a cheap split.

 

[Aloysius]

you're prolly right I think of those basically interchangeably, a sanded middle section. Nubuck has always been ugly to me.

Yeah I used to as well but nubuck isn't really a split; it's just form of corrected grain.

 

[TartuWolf]

Rough out > Nubuck > Suede in terms of quality / durability.

Rough out - full grain leather flipped over, grain goes inward, flesh goes outward. Very desirable.

Nubuck - basically top grain leather with the grain side lightly sanded to give it the nap. Basically as good as top grain leather, which is still worse than full grain.

Suede - basically split leather with the grain removed / split off. So you're getting the worst / weakest part of the leather with the best part (grain) removed.

So, apart from the nice soft feel of it, suede would be the least desirable of the 3 "non-smooth" leather types

Quoting myself for once haha.

 

[Marc mndt]

My point is still that roughout preserves the grain section, which is the densest and strongest part of the leather. If you use a flesh side split, they might look exactly the same on the flesh side but it won't have the skin side supporting it.

Theoretically this indeed makes sense.

I suspect a lot of beefier 'suede' jackets are probably just roughout, before it became more popular to make the distinction as a marketing tactic.

I owned a handful of 60s / 70s suede Levi's truckers. They were nothing like the fashion suede A1 jacket Canuck showed above, those Levi's things were tough as nails.

I guess when we think of suede we think of the thin and vulnerable stuff used for fashion jackets today.

But that doesn't mean suede is inherently weak and flimsy. Think of the 50s welders jackets, nothing thin or flimsy about those.

 

[red devil]

View attachment 659567

So I'm wondering a couple of things:

1) The question raised by @Squirrel_hero : why are collab jackets prioritized over regular orders?

2) What is the added value of having a 'Carl Murawski' approved type II if it's up to the customer to configure the jacket (choose the leather, lining, thread color, pocket shape). I thought the whole idea behind these CM collabs was to get a jacket that reflects Carl's design vision. Think of the B3 jacket that featured handwarmer pockets because Carl wants his jackets to be practical or whatever.

3) Why use roughout leather when the jacket is fully lined. You might as well use split suede, right?

I really don't see the point of the whole thing...

People who come here are generally interested in understanding the product beyond the branding. We hear it all the time from new comers. Yet, too many fell for the marketing of tanneries (CXL, Shinki, etc.).

And now we have pointless collabs? If you're researching leather jackets, shouldn't you educate yourself and spec it yourself? Or educate yoursel and go vintage or RTW?

 

[Tom71]

I really don't see the point of the whole thing...

People who come here are generally interested in understanding the product beyond the branding. We hear it all the time from new comers. Yet, too many fell for the marketing of tanneries (CXL, Shinki, etc.).

And now we have pointless collabs? If you're researching leather jackets, shouldn't you educate yourself and spec it yourself? Or educate yoursel and go vintage or RTW?

I am less critical of the collabs. Basically, sought-after brands offer easy-to-get slots for standardized products.

It´s a bit like Thurston-Bros.: Yes, you can get a stock Vanson, but you can´t specc. the details.

That´s why the Carl-collab doesn´t sit well with me. I am with @Marc mndt: why do a collab and then offer customization?
That must be a slap in the face of clients queueing for a year or so.