Felt debate

[Marc]

@Joseph: I don't want to be the nay-sayer around here, but I believe that some of you statements in your original post aren't quite right...

FOR HAT QUALITY

Most vintage dress hats are far better in quality than those you can have made by the the best hatters on the modern market.

That is just a little far out in my book. Granted if you compare a mass produced vintage hat (and they WERE mass produced, just check Debbie Henderson's Hat Talk) with a mass produced modern hat, the vintage hat would beat the modern hat. Hands down. But to say that MOST vintage hat (thereby including the mass produced ones) are better than those the best hatters could make nowadays, seems just plain wrong in my book. Teknology has improved over the years. And felt that was once run forth and back on a one roll roller to make the felt shrink and become dense, is done my a 5 roll roller equally all over the body at the same time nowadays. Thereby the density of the felt is more equally all over the body and so is the thickness. Of course, if the hatter does a sloppy job, that wouldn't help at all, but since you're talking about the best hatters on the modern marked, I reckon we can leave that factor out. So, it's all up to the craftmanship and I can't see why a modern day hatter could make at least as good a handmade hat, as his collegue 80 years ago. Problem is, that the labor has become extremely expensive over the last decades, but since we're talking quality here and not price, I reckon that we can leave that factor out as well.

Resillience to rain is one of the most important factors. Your felt hat will soak through in a downpour... felt acts like a sponge. The determiner of quality comes from how much the hat can take the rain without drooping.

No. Never has, never been. The determiner of water resistant is not the quality of the felt, but the quality of the water repellant that was use inside / outside the felt. No felt - no matter how dense it is - would ever withstand a downpour as in a shower without getting soaked as a sponge, if not water proofed. There are two ways of using water repellent: one is to water prof the felt as it's being made (from the inside) and one is to add water repellant to the surface after the pouncing - as many hatter do. Granted, a denser felt would stand the downpour a bit longer, but it would become soaked over time for sure. So, with the right water repellent, you could make the worst wool felt act as Teflon.

Pliability is another determiner of quality. Can the hat be crushed or rolled and return to it's original shape without the integrity being compromised. No hat can take constant rolling and crushing, just like no dollar bill can last forever under the constant folding and crushing. Some papers as some felts are better than others. I don't recomend rolling your hats for travel, though it is something I have done.

I'm not sure, what the pliability has to do with the quality of the felt. Let's imagine, that you are a hatter. Perhabs specialised on buying and reselling fine vintage hats. Now, imagine you have a super fine Borsalino, but your customer wants you to add stiffner, 'til it's hard as a cardboard (a crime, I know, but just go ahead and imagine the situation). Now, would this make the felt of less quality? - It would be the same fine felt as before and it could CERTAINLY not be rolled nor folded...

Just my two cts. based on personal experience with both vintage and moderns hats and rawbodies...

Regards,

Marc

 

[Razzman]

Matt....where can I find one of those thick white rubber hat sponges?
Thanks

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Western store's or here is a online source...

http://villagehatshop.resultspage.com/search?p=Q&ts=custom&w=sponge&submit=search

 

[Razzman]

Thanks for the info Sharptoys.

.

 

[Razzman]

Shortbrim....As far as that Borsalino goes....it may well be equivalent to the U.S. 7 1/4 but it's a small 7 1/4. I know firsthand as I just received a new Borsalino from my cousin who was in Italy on business. My size is 7 1/4 and this hat is a tad too small. I just purchased a stretcher to see if I can make it a bit larger.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Quite frankly Marc, The statements I made in the first post are all tried and true. I determine how well my hats can take the rain by how much they droop in the long run. Repellants will all wear out over time no matter how deeply imbedded into the felt, as I said before, fur felt is a sponge, and a water proofed sponge is still a sponge.

I have seen the better Custom hatter hats of today, and they all shrink after getting soaked -- Vintage doesn't. You can make a modern felt really really dense and really really smooth, though when you find a hatter that makes a modern felt that doesn't shrink post it here on the Lounge.

On the pliable factor... the better soft felt hats that I have owned, fedoras and such can be rolled and crushed and keep their resilience to cracking. This is a thing I look for when buying a soft dress hat. I can buy a hat that can't take this type of punishement, though when looking for resilience to most all things, I look for a hat that can take a beating and not end up with holes like those a paper bag gets from being manipulated too much. For hard hat purposes, use whatever felt you want and shelack... for soft dress hats, I want it to be able to tumble when I tumble and not end up with damaged felt.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

If need be...

Shortbrim....As far as that Borsalino goes....it may well be equivalent to the U.S. 7 1/4 but it's a small 7 1/4. I know firsthand as I just received a new Borsalino from my cousin who was in Italy on business. My size is 7 1/4 and this hat is a tad too small. I just purchased a stretcher to see if I can make it a bit larger.

If that doesn't work you could send it to Art Fawcett.

He is not a master hatter nor does he sell 1000X, 1500X, or 3000X hats. What he really is a honest hatter with alot of class... :eusa_clap


He does sell a 100% pure beaver custom made fedora for $275.00 or a rabbitt felt for $185.00

http://www.vintagesilhouettes.com/

Buy The Hat Not The Story!!

 

[Fedora]

I have seen the better Custom hatter hats of today, and they all shrink after getting soaked -- Vintage doesn't. You can make a modern felt really really dense and really really smooth, though when you find a hatter that makes a modern felt that doesn't shrink post it here on the Lounge.

I won't be around, but in 30 years, the high quality modern felt around today will be taper resistant, just like the vintage hats are today. The felt will be dead, just like the vintage felt is now. Dead felt does not react to the elements like live felt does. When those vintage ebay hats were new, they would shrink and taper as well. That is why the hat shops offered reblock services, along with most dry cleaners. Reblocking is as much a part of hat history as anything else. The reblock business would not have been as wide spread and prolific if those vintage hats were as bullet proof as Matt contends. Also, pull out the Stetson book and look at some of those old cowboy hats Stetson made in the early 20th century. The cowpokes wore their hats until they fell apart. And, they shrunk and tapered on the top just like a new felt would do if you used it as a work hat. That didn't bother them, it just added character. So, they gave the reblock services little business. The reblock service was for the dress hats. Nowadays, cowboys want their hat to look new, and I am sure the western hatters do reblocks quite often.

30, 40 or 50 years from now, someone will be touting the fine custom felt made in the early 21 century. The pure beaver hats that were put up in closets and brought out for resale will be the stuff legends are made of. Bet? Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Well if the worn in rained on hats of yesterday didn't shrink... at from the tape of all the guys walking around during the depression with worn in beat up untapered hats... I just think it's the felt making that has changed and not the curing that occurs over time. I am sure the barbs lose their ability to open and close after a while, it's just nature of aging. Materials of back then including wools were treated differently. I can wash a wool shiert from the 1940's over and over again and it won't shrink because of how it was made... preshrunk before made into the shirt is my guess. They used to Sanforize cotton shirts so they wouldn't shrink, the modern all cotton shirts do shrink. It's in no way far feched for me to truly believe that there is a process no being used which kept those abused hats from the 1930's and 40's in their untapered high crowned state. I have plenty of droopy vintage hats with holes in the front from being pinched, and they don't seem to have that modern taper you automatically get with modern felts.

It hink it would have been more of a subject of conversation or writing if hats tapered back then like they do today... find me an example because I am still looking. They didn't taper when new either!

For arguement sake let's stay away from discussing cowboy hats and talk Soft dress hats like Homburgs and fedora and bowlers... I have seen alot more dress hats and spoken to alot of dress hat makers.

I'll see beaten and squished hats from back then, though not shrunk like the ones of today. I could be wrong, though it's just what I have seen.

Crowns like the ones above when made now shrink to a point where you can't keep a crease that deep and wear the hat that low on your head.

I wish modern hatters would make them to par with what I find from the past. Optimo did a superb job... so have few other companies, though they all shrink following the first soaking... even the ones that swore theirs wouldn't... You know as well as I do Fedora that you were on the bandwaggon of those who believed they had the knowledge to keep their hats from shrinking... there are alot of words in this industry, though when it comes down to the teeth of thngs I know what I see and that is all I can say on hats.

 

[Fedora]

I just think it's the felt making that has changed and not the curing

Not according to Greg the President of Winchester. Felt is made the same way, using the same machines, the exact same machines. New felt is also alive. The art of feltmaking is in the mixing, if you are creating a blend. If you are running pure felts, the mixing does not enter into the equation. Are you saying that the fur is blown differently? Impossible. Are you saying the felting machines do not "felt" the fur?(this would be the variable here, as the hoods are passed through the felting machine more than once) Are you saying the animals giving up the fur today are genetically inferior?

Now, if they are using the same machines, and running the felt the proper number of times(and I am told at least Winchester does) and using good fur, the felt is not much different now than it was when the vintage stuff was new. ( I am not referring to what we see from Hatco nowadays)

Do not confuse dead felt with live felt. If you do, you will end up with invalid conclusions, as you readily do. Start by talking to someone who actually makes felt for a living and bypass the anecdotal.

You can take a high quality body from Portugal and it will look as good, feel as good, and be just as dense as the vintage stuff(post mercury) In fact, it will blow some of the cheaper vintage lines out of the water. Now, the only difference between this new felt and the vintage felt is the age. We can argue this all day long, so go to the source, and talk to someone who actually makes felt. I certainly do not expect anyone to take my word for it. If you think age has no effect on organics, you are badly mistaken. Some things get better with age, like tonal woods, wine, and quality felt. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

You are always trying to put words in my mouth... Don't! You are also trying to say I don't talk to felters... I do! Don't accuse me of that which you do not know...

You lept before you looked at felt before when it came to other hatters and their claims. You yourself made claims of your own before your felt was tested... I'm making no claims that can't be backed up... I am making observations.

I said what I said in the last few posts and nothing more could be truer to the eye.

Hatco also says they make their felt the same way they made it in the 30's with the same machines as well... just call their French rep in New York!

Your product, Fedora, is getting better every year... I still have that body you sent me for review. Smooth, though untested by me... You are getting great reviews by the wearers... All I have to say is keep up your good work.

As for now, let's agree to dissagree on this point and We'll start a felt quality thread like we had in the old days... as long as we can be civil. This one is going pretty off topic for an educational thread on basic hat care.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

No Taper here...

I reblocked my Akubra. I added some height to the crown and got rid of the Taper. LOL...

 

[feltfan]

Now, if they are using the same machines, and running the felt the proper number of times(and I am told at least Winchester does) and using good fur, the felt is not much different now than it was when the vintage stuff was new.

I can't speak to the "dead" felt vs. "live" felt notion. Interesting.

I'm not a felter or a hat maker. But it seems to me that
there are a lot more variables that go into making felt than
the machinery and it is not entirely clear what constitutes
"good fur". The president of Winchester felt is not an unbiased source.

Cribbing from Henderson's brief "The Handmade Felt Hat", here are
a few things that might have changed.

- "The finest of fur felts are made from the softest of hairs"
It may be that the people who select fur for felt are not
as skilled as they used to be, or the standards not as high.

- Carroting, in which fur fibers are treated with nitrate of mercury,
was used to prepare fur fibers for active interlocking and is no
doubt no longer done.

- We know dyeing is done differently today. For one thing,
different dyes are required today. "The dunking and cooling
are repeated as many as ten or twelve times so that the dye
penetrates the innermost fabric of the felt." Is this still done today?

Henderson doesn't mention it, but I have also read that
aging is important to the curing of felt. I understand this
is no longer done today.

Many proprietary processes were done in the old days that
are no longer done today. What was Cravenette process?
How did the manufacture of Vita-Felt differ from Dyna-felt?
What secrets created the incredible "pocket" or "lightweight"
"extra Superiore" or "extra extra Superiore" Borsalino felt that
was thin as a postcard and rolled for decades, happily regaining
its block? And once, long ago, you could choose between all
these wonderful felts when buying a hat.

Of course we also cannot be certain how the vintage machines
are operated today. It could be that corners are cut during felting.

So even granting that the original machines are still used, it is
unclear whether they are used precisely as they were used before
and clear that the materials and processes must differ.

All of which is not to discourage people from buying a new
hat from Fedora or Art. Just saying they differ from vintage,
for better or worse.

 

[Fedora]

You are always trying to put words in my mouth... Don't! You are also trying to say I don't talk to felters... I do! Don't accuse me of that which you do not know...

I am assuming then, that the felters you talked to, told you vintage felt would not taper when it was new? Reblocks were never needed? Miracle felt for certain.

You know as well as I do Fedora that you were on the bandwaggon of those who believed they had the knowledge to keep their hats from shrinking... there are alot of words in this industry, though when it comes down to the teeth of thngs I know what I see and that is all I can say on hats

Yes Matt, live and learn. My contention is you get in a rut, and refuse to look out of it. If I did that, I would have stopped my enquiry into this vintage versus modern felt deal. There is no magical process that has been lost, or is being refused to being used by the feltmakers. The main variable is age. Dead felt. You know, like dead rubber. If you grew up in the 50's you will remember the good live rubber that made great slingshots. Only thing, once the rubber got old, it lost its elasticity and was useless for slingshots. Once felt gets to a certain age, it loses its ability to shrink like it once had. This shrinking is the nature of any material that is stretched. You stretch it from a shrunken state. Now, just ask yourself, why would a stretched medium not shrink back down, at least somewhat, when the "set" created by the ironing is washed away? Superman can defy the laws of gravity, but I daresay new felt does not defy the laws of nature, old felt does. Why does old felt defy the laws of nature? That is the question. The obvious answer is, felt is composed of fur, and that fur is alive. It reacts to the environment. Once it dies, it no longer reacts to the degree it once did.

I have seen loads of old pics of the men and their hats. I see tapered hats in many of those pics. Now, were they blocked tapered, or did they taper with use? Probably both. Then again, you would not run into the taper issue if your hat came from a tapered style block. The felt was not stretched as much as one would have seen with a straight sided crown. The more a body is stretched, the more likely it will shrink back down, somewhat. When rubber or steel loses its "spring" it is still a piece of rubber or steel, but the properties have changed. I contend that felt is no different.


I will agree that most felt today is made fast and dirty. But, not all felt today is made fast and dirty.

The whole key to this issue is the stretching. A cone is stretched out on the top. That is does not return to the cone shape is amazing, but felt can be stretched and stabilized by ironing. Are you saying, that somehow, the stretched felt of yesteryear did not want to shrink back to what it once was? This is approaching the realm of magic. Occam's razor needs to be applied here.

Crowns like the ones above when made now shrink to a point where you can't keep a crease that deep and wear the hat that low on your head.

You need to get out more. No offense Matt. Ok, here is how it goes. When you buy bodies from feltmakers they normally come in different crown heights, and brim widths. If you take a body made for a 5 inch tall hat, and stretch a 5 1/2 out of it, it indeed will shrink and taper. The reasons are obvious. Hat bodies come in different heights and brim widths. If you use a 6 inch crowned body to make a 5 3/4 inch hat, you will see no shrinkage in height. Assuming the body is a high quality body of course. One that has been felted properly and has quality furs. I gotta tell you that I have done so many crown height reductions in my line of hats, and you cannot get the crown to shrink down from say 5 3/4 to 5 1/2 inches!! No, I wish somtimes the felt would do that because in order to drop the heights on my hats, I have to create a new brim break which I do not like doing. And believe me, I have tried to just shrink the crown heights down. It does not happen. I listen to statments like the above quote and wonder just how many modern felts you have owned. Now, there is one hatter who has a nice price on his hats, and going by that, you would think top quality felt-right? That ain't necessarily the case. Make that two hatters because I have spent money with both of them. Knowing what I know now, I bought junk felt. Those Portugal bodies can be had for 10 bucks each from one hatter, and the other may have paid 7 with customs added. Now, neither hatter was, at that time buying the good grade of felt that was possible to obtain from the feltmaker they were using. From that same feltmaker you can get a super body for around 100 bucks wholesale. If that had of been used, my hats would not have tapered as fast, but better than than, they would not have shrunk. I can handle the taper, but the shrinkage is a big problem. Your statement above just tells me you have not really lived with some of the modern upper shelf felts. But, until I started looking for feltmakers, I had not seen any either. You are at the point that I used to be. They are out there, but you will seldom see them used due to the retails the hatters would have to charge. If you pay 10 bucks for a body and you keep a constant gross margin, and you sell that hat for 400 dollars, what would you have to charge for a body that cost you 100 dollars? No one would pay the price, well perhaps a few, but you get my point. So most dress hatters are not gonna use that 100 dollar body!!! Sadly, some buy the cheapest, or close to the bottom of the price list. They can get away with it due to most folks not being knowledgable about hats. Of course, sites like this challenge them, and I think a few has actually listened and upped the quality of their felts. One hatter told someone at COW that prior to the internet sales, he had never been asked about fur content!! Well, he became well aware that folks were learning about felt content on the net, and I think this is why he moved up from his mostly rabbit hats to a better blend. But, you can rest assured there are even better blends available from his felter. That I do know because I know the felter and I know what is offered. And I know the prices. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Not in a rut... i just already knew that All Beaver does not a unshrinkable hat make... I didn't have to go through another trial and error process. I also already knew that vintage felt hasn't tapered. Hard to find pics of guys in the depression era who have tapered crowns. Drooping hats yes, tapered crowns no. Felt today from even winchester will taper to a point. if not reblocked soon enough, to where the felt will be unable to regain it's old height.

Like with the previous debates over whether All Beaver has non-shrinking qualities and whether it is suitable for soft dress felts... you tend to buffalo people into your side before you learn the truth, then when you learn the truth you apologize. I don't make my claims until I taste the steak. It makes me feel better when people don't buy the next big hat off of hype that is unfounded... I hate seeing posts from dissapointed Lounge members who trusted my opinion... So I stick to what I know and write that when I post!



As for the question on endorsing hats...
1930's Borsalinos, I'm not a fan of the dry feel of their felts made in the 50's and anything made in the 90's and 00's works better as a napkin.
Cavanagh from the 20's to 50's
Stetson up until the 60's
Knox from the 30's to their demise
Adam hats from the 30's to 50's
Resistol dress hats up until he 60's
Those are the better ones i have seen of the Vintage.

For modern and high end I as of yet, only recommend Optimo in Chicago as not only is the felt pretty good, he just knows how to fashion a hat like it came off a shelf from a department store in the 1930's, though like with all modern hats it will taper with the rain. Like with all modern hats it could taper beyond going back to the original crown shap, so little bit o rain then reblock and repeat... same goes for all modern felts.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

No taper zone!

I have several hats from Steve Delk nd Art Fawcett in pure beaver.

Last year during one of the many hurricanes I go thru living in Florida I was late putting up the storm shutters on my house.

My Adventurebilt fedora was on my head and it was soaked thru in thru. I turned out the sweat set the hat on a towel and it took two days to dry and not one inch of taper...

I know where the felt came from and I was absolutely impressed with this beaver felt.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Congrats... I hope more stories turn out like yours

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What on earth happened to this thread? it reads like some random amalgam of posts from other threads, many of which appear to have no connection to the others ...

bk

 

[Visigoth]

Matt, I would hope you would put Dobbs in your list of recommended hats. My run-of-the-mill Dobbs hats from (I think) the fifties or sixties -- not even Dobbs Twenties -- are of *superb* quality. The soft felt in my Dobbs Twenty-Two (sixties?) pretty much holds its own with my thirties Borsalinos.

I've said it before: to my amateur hand, the thick plush felt on a 1960 Borsalino Extra Superiore is the nicest I've ever encountered. (Not to everyone's taste, of course: thick felt, almost longhaired, but it can be molded without steam, and will hold its shape perfectly, and return to form.)

I just won a Borsalino Grand Luxe XXXXX -- not sure the vintage -- and I'm expecting miracle felt...

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It's in no way far feched for me to truly believe that there is a process not being used today which kept those abused hats from the 1930's and 40's in their untapered high crowned state. I have plenty of droopy vintage hats with holes in the front from being pinched, and they don't seem to have that modern taper you automatically get with modern felts.

Hmmm. Here's a color photo taken on a Chicago street in 1939. Spot the taper?

.