Fedoras afield

[The Shoe]

Oh wow, Hokkaido sounds wild. Have you visited?

A dear friend is from Hokkaido. Her father’s family were fishermen but originally from a clan of disgraced samurai who were sent to the island centuries ago. Perhaps the government will look to implement something similar to increase the human population.

She once told me her father could not swim. I asked, “Wasn’t he a fisherman?” She said if you fall out of the boat in Hokkaido, the water temperature will kill you. Brrr!

I’ve been there twice. Once in mid winter when it was entirely covered in snow. I went to the Sapporo snow festival and rode an ice breaker through the drift ice off the coast of the old prison town of Abashiri. Loads of fun. The other time was in summer, visiting a friend. We were mainly in the cities, but did get to drive through some pretty spectacular country.
I’m very keen to get back up there to see the Shiretoko Peninsula, a spectacular looking World Heritage site that is home to some spectacular scenery and wildlife, including large numbers of those brown bears. Won’t be this year, but keep an eye out in this thread!

Apparently the crab fishing up north, between the main island and the disputed territory is some of the most dangerous fishing in the world.

As an aside, the most deadly animal here is the suzumebachi (literally sparrow-bee). There are two types, the regular yellow hornets that live in town and are responsible for more deaths, and the so-called murder hornets, which nest underground, but not usually in the vicinity of large human populations.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I’ve been there twice. Once in mid winter when it was entirely covered in snow. I went to the Sapporo snow festival and rode an ice breaker through the drift ice off the coast of the old prison town of Abashiri. Loads of fun. The other time was in summer, visiting a friend. We were mainly in the cities, but did get to drive through some pretty spectacular country.
I’m very keen to get back up there to see the Shiretoko Peninsula, a spectacular looking World Heritage site that is home to some spectacular scenery and wildlife, including large numbers of those brown bears. Won’t be this year, but keep an eye out in this thread!

Very fun, I look forward to future posts.

The deepest into Japan I have ventured thus far is the Tokyo airport. Still deep enough to have first-hand experience of the famous Japanese toilet, at least!

 

[StoryPNW]

I’ve been there twice. Once in mid winter when it was entirely covered in snow. I went to the Sapporo snow festival and rode an ice breaker through the drift ice off the coast of the old prison town of Abashiri. Loads of fun. The other time was in summer, visiting a friend. We were mainly in the cities, but did get to drive through some pretty spectacular country.
I’m very keen to get back up there to see the Shiretoko Peninsula, a spectacular looking World Heritage site that is home to some spectacular scenery and wildlife, including large numbers of those brown bears. Won’t be this year, but keep an eye out in this thread!

Apparently the crab fishing up north, between the main island and the disputed territory is some of the most dangerous fishing in the world.

As an aside, the most deadly animal here is the suzumebachi (literally sparrow-bee). There are two types, the regular yellow hornets that live in town and are responsible for more deaths, and the so-called murder hornets, which nest underground, but not usually in the vicinity of large human populations.

I just Googled the suzumebachi, I'm now officially more scared of those than I am of bears. Lol!

 

[Frunobulax]

Like I said, a very specific and relatively small group that use OCONUS to refer to the territory outside the contiguous US. It’s a specialty term and not how it is used in its far more common usages; in both legal and everyday uses.

My profession has all sorts of jargon and job specific nomenclature that does not jive with the words common usages. For instance, I’ve gotten into several arguments with people who insist that the two wheel tracks on a US Forest Service “Road” is in fact a highway. It’s not how the word Highway is normally used, but in the legal definition within the scope of my actions it meets the codified definition of a highway. I’d hold off on notifying the generals.

Well, my point is that it's not esoteric nor a relatively small group. It's the predominant definition of the term. It is in regular use by an industry that employs ~1.5M active duty personnel, about 750,000 civilian personnel, and you can likely double that when adding in contracting personnel like me. personally, I use it on a regular basis.

That doesn't include the State Dept., CIA, or any others that regularly operate outside of the lower 48.

The term is enshrined in instructions, rules, and regulations followed by those personnel. It is used in contracts enforceable by law. It is also used on a regular basis to refer to forward deployed military assets and foreign military bases and embassies.

https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/per-diem-rates

That link will take you to the GSA's per diem rates. This has to be adhered to by every federal employee when travelling, even those at the USGS. You will see it defines CONUS as the lower 48, and directs you to the military for all else (OCONUS). So, follow the money.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Well, my point is that it's not esoteric nor a relatively small group. It's the predominant definition of the term. It is in regular use by an industry that employs ~1.5M active duty personnel, about 750,000 civilian personnel, and you can likely double that when adding in contracting personnel like me. personally, I use it on a regular basis.

That doesn't include the State Dept., CIA, or any others that regularly operate outside of the lower 48.

The term is enshrined in instructions, rules, and regulations followed by those personnel. It is used in contracts enforceable by law. It is also used on a regular basis to refer to forward deployed military assets and foreign military bases and embassies.

https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/per-diem-rates

That link will take you to the GSA's per diem rates. This has to be adhered to by every federal employee when travelling, even those at the USGS. You will see it defines CONUS as the lower 48, and directs you to the military for all else (OCONUS). So, follow the money.

This must be a question lots of organizations have to answer. Just as one example, Pew Research Group uses the same definition as the USAF and discusses it on their website:

"The definition of “continental United States” that we and most other major survey organizations use includes the 48 contiguous states but not Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the other U.S. territories."

https://www.pewresearch.org/2010/09/27/what-do-you-mean-by-continental-u-s/

According to the Google Ngram engine, the term "continental United States" came into wide usage before Hawaii and Alaska became states - right after the Spanish-American War. It reaches its peak at the end of WWII.

Google Ngram:
https://books.google.com/ngrams/

It seems obvious that use of the term to refer to the lower 48 is due to this history, but I agree with the USGS and with Brent that it should include Alaska.

 

[Frunobulax]

This must be a question lots of organizations have to answer. Just as one example, Pew Research Group uses the same definition as the USAF and discusses it on their website:

"The definition of “continental United States” that we and most other major survey organizations use includes the 48 contiguous states but not Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the other U.S. territories."

https://www.pewresearch.org/2010/09/27/what-do-you-mean-by-continental-u-s/

According to the Google Ngram engine, the term "continental United States" came into wide usage before Hawaii and Alaska became states - right after the Spanish-American War. It reaches its peak at the end of WWII.

View attachment 539664


Google Ngram:
https://books.google.com/ngrams/

It seems obvious that use of the term to refer to the lower 48 is due to this history, but I agree with the USGS and with Brent that it should include Alaska.

Well, I believe it's inception was military and govt., who use the term predominantly and regularly, and use the lower 48 definition. I rarely hear a "lay" person utter it.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Well, I believe it's inception was military and govt., who use the term predominantly and regularly, and use the lower 48 definition. I rarely hear a "lay" person utter it.

I usually use the term "stateside" anyway, by which I also mean the lower 48. I've never heard anybody but military use that term but its the easiest off my tongue.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Well, my point is that it's not esoteric nor a relatively small group. It's the predominant definition of the term. It is in regular use by an industry that employs ~1.5M active duty personnel, about 750,000 civilian personnel, and you can likely double that when adding in contracting personnel like me. personally, I use it on a regular basis.

That doesn't include the State Dept., CIA, or any others that regularly operate outside of the lower 48.

The term is enshrined in instructions, rules, and regulations followed by those personnel. It is used in contracts enforceable by law. It is also used on a regular basis to refer to forward deployed military assets and foreign military bases and embassies.

https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/per-diem-rates

That link will take you to the GSA's per diem rates. This has to be adhered to by every federal employee when travelling, even those at the USGS. You will see it defines CONUS as the lower 48, and directs you to the military for all else (OCONUS). So, follow the money.

Where is your proof that your military definition is the “predominant definition of the term?” It seems like a near impossible thing to prove yet you state it as a fact without any references. In my life, I’ve see my definition as more common, but my anecdotal experience isn’t proof. I work and travel for the Government and in the universal employee travel policy it uses continental US to mean the contiguous US and Alaska; however, that does not mean it’s the predominant definition. You’re saying something doesn’t make it so and you don’t, and I believe can’t, provide supporting documentation that it is the predominant definition. It’s far too common for people to make claims without being able to support them with facts. I can also say that contracts and legally binding judicial decisions use continental US to include Alaska, but I can’t make the jump to say that it’s the predominant definition because I don’t have the facts to back that up, and in fact I hold out the possibility that I might not be the predominant usage since I have not made a tally of its usage. I have no problem conceding that in defense and national intelligence spheres you are correct, but the jump to calling it the predominant usage without supporting references seems like opinion stated as fact.

I know you are sharp, but this also know you don’t mind mixing it up or I would have backed away before this. I trust this has been for you, as it has been for me, just a diversion and enjoyable back and forth. I’ll let you have the last word if you care to make a point, but I’m returning to hats.

One of the things I’m going to miss in retirement is the regular interactions with smart men who keep me humble and keep me honest.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

^^^
Damn!!! Heck of a discussion!
My eyes and ears hurt.

The US, the United States, needs to update that term, bring it forward with some transparency for all us err….Americans.

I propose CONUS+.
Heaven forbid we have to add a (-).
Add letters after the (+) when required.
Now…the word fedora in the thread title…..ohhh nvm.
B

,

 

[Frunobulax]

I know you are sharp, but this also know you don’t mind mixing it up or I would have backed away before this. I trust this has been for you, as it has been for me, just a diversion and enjoyable back and forth. I’ll let you have the last word if you care to make a point, but I’m returning to hats.

Kinda sad you felt the need to write that. Nah, jabbing with you is fun.

While I can't point to an origin for the term (and neither can you), It has been in common usage by millions as I've defined it for decades. One thing to point out, is it's a mistake to think of it as a geographic term; it is a strategic term. Alaska has different defense needs and deployment strategies that Iowa, so it make sense not to include it.

Next week, friends, we're going to discuss whether the correct term is "cut the mustard" or "cut the muster."

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Kinda sad you felt the need to write that. Nah, jabbing with you is fun.

While I can't point to an origin for the term (and neither can you), It has been in common usage by millions as I've defined it for decades. One thing to point out, is it's a mistake to think of it as a geographic term; it is a strategic term. Alaska has different defense needs and deployment strategies that Iowa, so it make sense not to include it.

Next week, friends, we're going to discuss whether the correct term is "cut the mustard" or "cut the muster."

I think you misunderstood my comment, something that’s easy to do in writing without inflections and nonverbal communication. I mentioned you’re being “sharp” because you are not someone I would lightly take a contrary position to. It was about my insecurity in challenging you rather than a comment meant to offend you. I apologize if my inarticulate phrasing made it come across other than as it was meant. I hold you in high esteem and would never want to write anything that conflicts with that.

I don’t deny that continental US (CONUS) can be used as a strategic term that excludes Alaska, however, continental US has also been used by millions for decades as a term that includes Alaska. I referenced the Government agency charged with mapping and legal definitions (USGS) where by their official, and reaffirmed, policy Alaska is part of the continental US. I think contiguous US or lower 48 are more commonly used to describe what the military refers to as CONUS.

It was your stating as fact that your definition which excludes Alaska was the “predominant” understanding of the term when you cannot support the claim that I’m questioning. I don’t doubt that others outside the military and intelligence community uses the term as you do, but how can you state as fact that it is the predominant definition? It sure isn’t in my life.

Your assertion that the “~1.5M active duty personnel, about 750,000 civilian personnel, and you can likely double that when adding in contracting personnel like me” makes your definition predominate doesn’t seem to support your position. According to your numbers it represents less than one in 100 US citizens and that’s why I described it a a relatively small group. Relatively (proportionally) it is a small group…not that I’m saying they are not a very important group. You state that your definition is a strategic term and not a geographical term, but I’m guessing that most people are using it as a geographical term (I don’t think The Shoe was referring to our strategy on grizzly bears). The majority of us are not involved with national defense matters.

In the end, it’s a confusing term which has multiple accepted definitions depending on source and application. Perhaps it’s best to avoid it outside certain contexts where the definition is universally agreed?

I also enjoy jabbing with you. My I suggest we next go after chomping at the bit VS champing at the bit? Hours of fun ahead!

 

[Blare]

Next week, friends, we're going to discuss whether the correct term is "cut the mustard" or "cut the muster."

I also enjoy jabbing with you. My I suggest we next go after chomping at the bit VS champing at the bit? Hours of fun ahead!

Do I hear a new thread “Coming down the pipe” / “Coming down the pike” ???

 

[Who?]

Alaska is not contiguous.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Alaska is not contiguous.

I don’t think anyone was saying it was contiguous, and if that did make I into the text it was by error. The discussion was if Alaska was part of the continental United States. We of course all agree it is part of the same continent, but does the common usage of “continental US” include Alaska. It’s also beyond dispute that in some applications or fields it excludes Alaska and in some it specifically includes Alaska. What is not know is if one definition is the default or predominant definition.

I don’t think we are going to find any definitive proof, but I’d love to hear any evidence you might have.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I don’t think anyone was saying it was contiguous, and if that did make I into the text it was by error. The discussion was if Alaska was part of the continental United States. We of course all agree it is part of the same continent, but does the common usage of “continental US” include Alaska. It’s also beyond dispute that in some applications or fields it excludes Alaska and in some it specifically includes Alaska. What is not know is if one definition is the default or predominant definition.

I don’t think we are going to find any definitive proof, but I’d love to hear any evidence you might have.

Excellent summary!

 

[Frunobulax]

I think you misunderstood my comment, something that’s easy to do in writing without inflections and nonverbal communication. I mentioned you’re being “sharp” because you are not someone I would lightly take a contrary position to. It was about my insecurity in challenging you rather than a comment meant to offend you. I apologize if my inarticulate phrasing made it come across other than as it was meant. I hold you in high esteem and would never want to write anything that conflicts with that.

I don’t deny that continental US (CONUS) can be used as a strategic term that excludes Alaska, however, continental US has also been used by millions for decades as a term that includes Alaska. I referenced the Government agency charged with mapping and legal definitions (USGS) where by their official, and reaffirmed, policy Alaska is part of the continental US. I think contiguous US or lower 48 are more commonly used to describe what the military refers to as CONUS.

It was your stating as fact that your definition which excludes Alaska was the “predominant” understanding of the term when you cannot support the claim that I’m questioning. I don’t doubt that others outside the military and intelligence community uses the term as you do, but how can you state as fact that it is the predominant definition? It sure isn’t in my life.

Your assertion that the “~1.5M active duty personnel, about 750,000 civilian personnel, and you can likely double that when adding in contracting personnel like me” makes your definition predominate doesn’t seem to support your position. According to your numbers it represents less than one in 100 US citizens and that’s why I described it a a relatively small group. Relatively (proportionally) it is a small group…not that I’m saying they are not a very important group. You state that your definition is a strategic term and not a geographical term, but I’m guessing that most people are using it as a geographical term (I don’t think The Shoe was referring to our strategy on grizzly bears). The majority of us are not involved with national defense matters.

In the end, it’s a confusing term which has multiple accepted definitions depending on source and application. Perhaps it’s best to avoid it outside certain contexts where the definition is universally agreed?

I also enjoy jabbing with you. My I suggest we next go after chomping at the bit VS champing at the bit? Hours of fun ahead!

Aww, Brent, I thought you were going to give me the last word, not another wall 0' text! I hate to do this to you, but I'll make it quick and painless.

USPS defines CONUS as not including Alaska. Therefore, every American uses that definition when they engage the USPS. That's what, 350M?

eBay defines CONUS as not including Alaska. eBay operates and ships worldwide, so if you engage with eBay, you're using their definition.

UPS defines CONUS as not including Alaska. They are a nogovernmental carrier serving the international community, so everybody who engages with UPS is, by default using that definition.

Sounds pretty predominant to me.

Ow, that's gonna leave a mark.

Do I hear a new thread “Coming down the pipe” / “Coming down the pike” ???

There's a bathroom on the right.

 

[Blare]

There's a bathroom on the right.

I mean.. I don’t have a ‘horse in this fight’.. nor ‘a dog (or chicken) in the race’ for that matter

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Aww, Brent, I thought you were going to give me the last word, not another wall 0' text! I hate to do this to you, but I'll make it quick and painless.

USPS defines CONUS as not including Alaska. Therefore, every American uses that definition when they engage the USPS. That's what, 350M?

eBay defines CONUS as not including Alaska. eBay operates and ships worldwide, so if you engage with eBay, you're using their definition.

UPS defines CONUS as not including Alaska. They are a nogovernmental carrier serving the international community, so everybody who engages with UPS is, by default using that definition.

Sounds pretty predominant to me.

View attachment 539975

Ow, that's gonna leave a mark.



There's a bathroom on the right.

I was looking online for evidence of the USPS definition of "continental US" (not that I doubted you, but I wanted evidence).

I found instead the following definition listed in the US Code (Para. 101 item 1.B):

"The term "continental United States" means the 48 contiguous States and the District of Columbia."

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title37-section101&num=0&edition=prelim#:~:text=(B) The term "continental,Samoa, and the guano islands.

I don't think we will get more authoritative than that. It's literally federal law!

 

[Frunobulax]

I was looking online for evidence of the USPS definition of "continental US" (not that I doubted you, but I wanted evidence).

I found instead the following definition listed in the US Code (Para. 101 item 1.B):

"The term "continental United States" means the 48 contiguous States and the District of Columbia."

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title37-section101&num=0&edition=prelim#:~:text=(B) The term "continental,Samoa, and the guano islands.

I don't think we will get more authoritative than that. It's literally federal law!

Now I've had it in my head for so long, I keep hearing the 7-Up guy (Geoffrey Holder) saying "CONUS hat; OCONUS hat."

I just really wanted to use that Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat GIF.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Aww, Brent, I thought you were going to give me the last word, not another wall 0' text! I hate to do this to you, but I'll make it quick and painless.

USPS defines CONUS as not including Alaska. Therefore, every American uses that definition when they engage the USPS. That's what, 350M?

eBay defines CONUS as not including Alaska. eBay operates and ships worldwide, so if you engage with eBay, you're using their definition.

UPS defines CONUS as not including Alaska. They are a nogovernmental carrier serving the international community, so everybody who engages with UPS is, by default using that definition.

Sounds pretty predominant to me.

View attachment 539975

Ow, that's gonna leave a mark.



There's a bathroom on the right.

I made a lists of counter points and references, but I did say you would have the last word.