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[jlee562]

This was first opined by a member in 2010..and nothing came of it. Now resurrected. This "concept" would be an enormous undertaking. Would it be just "Hats", or "Leather Jackets", or "The Golden Era".... see?

....see what?

I don't think anyone in the hats forum is discussing anything other than a hat wiki. If the other sections of the lounge want to participate, they can, that's the beauty of the wiki format. But a hat wiki will not be left wanting for lack of a leather jacket section. I think @Frunobulax 's suggestion of starting with major brand histories is the right way to go. It provides a solid foundation to bounce off of, and there will be the easiest to find authoritative resources for.

The Lounge has been up and running quite successfully for about 15 + years or so. It is a wonderful interactive resource. We have tons of information, photos, and user comments and content.

Sure, none of this is in dispute.

Duplication may serve no purpose. In fact, if you Google some aspect/topic of what is generally discussed in the Lounge, you can find lots of references and good information.

Again, I would argue that this does serve an immense purpose.

As a system of cataloging information, does it make more sense to have one page which links to several sub-topics, or five different threads with thousands of posts each (Dating a Stetson by size tag; dating a Stetson by liner; Stetson Quality 'think tank'"; Stetson ads, etc, etc)?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

....see what?

I don't think anyone in the hats forum is discussing anything other than a hat wiki. If the other sections of the lounge want to participate, they can, that's the beauty of the wiki format. But a hat wiki will not be left wanting for lack of a leather jacket section. I think @Frunobulax 's suggestion of starting with major brand histories is the right way to go. It provides a solid foundation to bounce off of, and there will be the easiest to find authoritative resources for.



Sure, none of this is in dispute.



Again, I would argue that this does serve an immense purpose.

As a system of cataloging information, does it make more sense to have one page which links to several sub-topics, or five different threads with thousands of posts each (Dating a Stetson by size tag; dating a Stetson by liner; Stetson Quality 'think tank'"; Stetson ads, etc, etc)?

I love The Lounge, but you have to be willing to put in a lot of time to find things, but f you find them at all. I’m all for a system that is more user friendly and searchable in addition to the the existing threads.


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[Andykev]

The Lounge updated to the current forum software and it works great. The old system served for quite some time, but became outdated. I know our "Head Bartender" spent a lot, LOT, of time handing the change and preserving all the files and data.

So you are proposing creating a new "Wiki" regarding "Hats"? (Stand alone?)

First, who would do this? Where would it be hosted, and there, who pays for that? Is it "free"? That is an honest question as I am very familiar with websites such as Wordpress, etc., but I confess to know little about "Wiki" except when I use "Wikipedia" and that is hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation, a non-profit organization.

The original question back in 2010 was this:

Has anyone ever suggested or thought of updating the depressingly lame entry for 'Fedora' on Wikipedia?

In other words, are you proposing just "adding" to Wikipedia,and isn't anyone allowed to do that via their website?

 

[Andykev]

We already have our own reference in HATS, this:
Links To Important Hat Forum Threads

BTW... I read the entire Wikipedia page for "Fedora"...and it's typical of most reference material...in that it gives a fairly good "dictionary" explanation. I certainly have no desire or time to create some "resource" as suggested. Google, Wiki, and the voluminous content here today is far, far more than was available 15 years ago when this place opened it's doors for business.

And we have a "search" feature in upper right corner. A handy form pops up.

 

[Just Daniel]

Thanks Andy, I had imagined you guys have someone you use as a website developer? I can’t really estimate costs, but I assume a wiki clone will not be particularly costly.

Here is the first reasonable site I found with suggestions, there is of course more info out there:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/4-sites-create-wikipedialike-website/

Media Wiki, Tiki Wiki, and Docu Wiki are free, open source options.


From what other folks have been suggesting, a Fedora Lounge wiki would be another tab or link on this site. Under hats it could have a tab that says “FL Wiki” or even “FLiki.”

A wiki on Stetsons would have sections that reference back to the forum, such as “Dating by Size Tag,” “Stetson Quality Designations,” etc. Those could all be created and edited by members with enough entries or any other permissions you determine.

For costs, I am not familiar with the Fedora Lounge revenue model. I have suggested a google ad to generate income. I don’t see any ads on the site currently, so I am not sure what your view on ads or sponsorship would be.

Hopefully this helps, I sincerely believe an FL wiki will be fun to start filling in, and it is a great next step for the website. I and others can help a lot!

Daniel

 

[jlee562]

Fandom, also known as Wikia is another option

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Special:CreateNewWiki

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Help:Start_a_new_community

 

[Andykev]

Again. Who would do this, and believe me....what is "suggested" would require a LOT of time and MONEY.

This "idea" has not been mentioned since 2010. Obviously, the Lounge has worked as it was intended and designed. In fact, we have "grown" over the years to add various subjects and interest groups. The Lounge is what it is, basically an interactive forum for users to read and comment, and exchange ideas.

We also have an "ARTICLES" section, an "RESOURCES" section, and a "MEDIA" section. Assuming all these content areas are tagged and will be found by Google bots for SEO purposes.

 

[Just Daniel]

Andy,

Do you guys have developers you worked with on the original site? If so, it is worth asking them for input on how much it would cost to add a freeware wiki tab with simple user permissions. The programming is free, the experts needed to add the link and put initial user permissions. The backend programming for the wiki itself comes from the off the shelf freeware, no costly customizations.

Second - back to the income portion. Does FL want to generate income with a google ad? I for one believe an FL wiki would be the place for folks to easily find information on vintage items an issues. How the Fedora Lounge makes money is more up to you guys...

Lastly, who would do it? A simple beta test with one wiki - Dating Stetson Hats, for instance - would show WE would populate the site, using the data and information from and linking to the Lounge discussions.

One important reason to open a wiki: the danger is a real Wikipedia page appears that is named “History of Stetson Quality Designations” or similar, and that wiki page will compete with and draw users and posters from the Lounge. Is it an existential threat? Maybe, maybe not; but the competition is out there and an FL wiki is a strong point to maintain the Fedora Lounge as the best and most dynamic point to learn a very thing you might need about vintage hats, etc.

A small beta wiki would be pretty cool....

All the best,
Daniel

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Again. Who would do this, and believe me....what is "suggested" would require a LOT of time and MONEY.

This "idea" has not been mentioned since 2010. Obviously, the Lounge has worked as it was intended and designed. In fact, we have "grown" over the years to add various subjects and interest groups. The Lounge is what it is, basically an interactive forum for users to read and comment, and exchange ideas.

We also have an "ARTICLES" section, an "RESOURCES" section, and a "MEDIA" section. Assuming all these content areas are tagged and will be found by Google bots for SEO purposes.

If the powers that be don’t want to change or grow in the direction suggested that is their prerogative. I think that there are better ways, but I’m not in charge. I’m also not one of the people with enough knowledge to contribute to the LOT of time required. The Lounge is great as-is, and if those in charge are not interested in making it better (in this regard) that’s their choice.

I can say that many people get discouraged and give up rather than spend hours (no exaggeration) to ferret out the information they are after. Who knows how much more The Lounge could grow if the vast stores of information were more easily accessed. I’m not a technology guy and I don’t know what would be required, but I do know other places on the web make getting information easier than The Lounge. I don’t want to change the format, but it would be nice if there was a wiki type function added to the site.

I understand that I’m volunteering other’s time and money and I don’t grasp all the problems and complexities such an addition would require. I’m just making observations and suggestions. I’m grateful that The Fedora Lounge exists and I give heartfelt thanks to those who have made it happen.


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[jlee562]

Again. Who would do this, and believe me....what is "suggested" would require a LOT of time and MONEY.

This "idea" has not been mentioned since 2010. Obviously, the Lounge has worked as it was intended and designed. In fact, we have "grown" over the years to add various subjects and interest groups. The Lounge is what it is, basically an interactive forum for users to read and comment, and exchange ideas.

We also have an "ARTICLES" section, an "RESOURCES" section, and a "MEDIA" section. Assuming all these content areas are tagged and will be found by Google bots for SEO purposes.

Yet we also have posters coming in all the time starting new threads to get their hats dated or looking for general info. I would suggest this demonstrates that the utility of the lounge is not maximized. Yes, there is lots of information here, I posit that if we make it easier for people to find said info, not only would the Lounge be an even better resource, but it would help keep the forum a bit cleaner.

Unless I've missed something, setting up a Wiki via Fandom/Wikia, in and of itself, does not cost anything. One potential cost is for backups, as Wikia does not provide a backup service. They use same back end as Wikipedia and they put ads on the pages (in this scenario, obviously ad revenue is not generated for TFL). It would act as the 'Official' TFL wiki.

Who would do it? If you build it, they will come. I'm certainly willing to put in time for this project. Although I don't claim to be the most knowledgeable, I have written an MA thesis so I'm not unfamiliar with a big, multifaceted, on-going, writing project,

 

[Rmccamey]

If I might interject (and NOT as an expert in either the IT or Historical aspects of the discussion). As a start to perhaps establish proof-of-concept, it seems to me the interested parties could craft a few of the "Fliki" pages as new threads within the current parameters of TFL incorporating the text information of the topic (History of Stetson hats) and getting a start on linking the relevant TFL threads, posts, or even other external web links. I don't see how the Bartenders could balk at something like that because that is what we, as users and contributors, do on TFL every day. Once a few of those Fliki threads are up and running, then maybe everyone could see at least a part of the level of effort it would take and have rough examples of what the actual Fliki pages might look like.

 

[Andykev]

The Fedora Lounge does not have a "team of developers". It is our "Head Bartender" Nathan Flowers.

No one is stopping you from adding all you wish to Wikipedia. The Lounge is what it is. The WWW is a big universe.

 

[Andykev]

THIS :

I understand that I’m volunteering other’s time and money and I don’t grasp all the problems and complexities such an addition would require. I’m just making observations and suggestions. I’m grateful that The Fedora Lounge exists and I give heartfelt thanks to those who have made it happen.

 

[jlee562]

The Fedora Lounge does not have a "team of developers". It is our "Head Bartender" Nathan Flowers.

No one is stopping you from adding all you wish to Wikipedia. The Lounge is what it is. The WWW is a big universe.

1) There is a reason that separate wikis exist outside of Wikipedia, and it's precisely because the Encyclopedia format is not intended to be an exhaustive, in-depth, study of each particular subject, but rather a broad overview. Not all the pages in a hat-specific wiki are likely to meet the notability threshold for Wikipedia proper.

2) There seems to be some misconception about Wikipedia here. It's only sort of true that "nobody is stopping [us] from adding all [we] wish to Wikipedia." As I noted on the previous page, much of the Lounge knowledge would likely be regarded as "original research" because of a lack of empirical verification. E.G. we can surmise approximate years of when different types of size tags were used based on retailer catalogs, store ads, and broad correlations with LOT numbers and whatnot. But we do not have written documentation from Stetson or otherwise that says when they switched from say, keyhole to square tags. This is even assuming that "Stetson Size Tags" would meet Wikipedia's notability threshold (what third party source has been written about Stetson size tags?)

3) The rationale of creating this project under the purview of/'sponsored by' The Fedora Lounge is three-fold. The first is that it acknowledges the contributions of the many, many, Lounge posters who have gotten us to where we are today. Second, because conceivably it would be relatively easier to get original content that can be posted under a CC BY-NC license (or in other words, the pictures of our hats we already post to The Lounge). Third, it would allow us to develop our own editorial standards to get around Wikipedia proper's standards of notability and original research.

I totally get it if adding a wiki to the forum is cost prohibitive. But I also think it's being a little short sighted to be dismissive of the possibility of using a service like Fandom/Wikia to create a companion Wiki for The Lounge if folks are saying they're willing to contribute. There's at least two of us here now, which no, is not enough for a whole Wiki, but maybe the fact that this discussion keeps coming up is also reflective of demand.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

THIS :

I understand that I’m volunteering other’s time and money and I don’t grasp all the problems and complexities such an addition would require. I’m just making observations and suggestions. I’m grateful that The Fedora Lounge exists and I give heartfelt thanks to those who have made it happen.

We all enjoy The Lounge as it is. We are just looking to make it better. I’m sure no one was trying to seem disrespectful or unappreciative.

As I’m not able to do any of the work, or underwrite those who can, I’ll stop advocating for a change. Thanks for at least hearing our ideas.


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[Bushman]

Like many message boards, I always figured the Fedora Lounge to be a social joint where one can come and comfortably discuss The Era without fear of ridicule. Sure, you can pick up some great info while here, but I never really considered it an educational spot. A wiki would be great, but I don't consider it a necessity to the enjoyment of the Fedora Lounge. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Just Daniel]

Great points Jared, thanks.

1) There is a reason that separate wikis exist outside of Wikipedia, and it's precisely because the Encyclopedia format is not intended to be an exhaustive, in-depth, study of each particular subject, but rather a broad overview. Not all the pages in a hat-specific wiki are likely to meet the notability threshold for Wikipedia proper.

2) There seems to be some misconception about Wikipedia here. It's only sort of true that "nobody is stopping [us] from adding all [we] wish to Wikipedia." As I noted on the previous page, much of the Lounge knowledge would likely be regarded as "original research" because of a lack of empirical verification. E.G. we can surmise approximate years of when different types of size tags were used based on retailer catalogs, store ads, and broad correlations with LOT numbers and whatnot. But we do not have written documentation from Stetson or otherwise that says when they switched from say, keyhole to square tags. This is even assuming that "Stetson Size Tags" would meet Wikipedia's notability threshold (what third party source has been written about Stetson size tags?)

3) The rationale of creating this project under the purview of/'sponsored by' The Fedora Lounge is three-fold. The first is that it acknowledges the contributions of the many, many, Lounge posters who have gotten us to where we are today. Second, because conceivably it would be relatively easier to get original content that can be posted under a CC BY-NC license (or in other words, the pictures of our hats we already post to The Lounge). Third, it would allow us to develop our own editorial standards to get around Wikipedia proper's standards of notability and original research.

I totally get it if adding a wiki to the forum is cost prohibitive. But I also think it's being a little short sighted to be dismissive of the possibility of using a service like Fandom/Wikia to create a companion Wiki for The Lounge if folks are saying they're willing to contribute. There's at least two of us here now, which no, is not enough for a whole Wiki, but maybe the fact that this discussion keeps coming up is also reflective of demand.

 

[Just Daniel]

Thanks Andy, I think it's important to note everyone is trying to improve and add to the value of the site, especially in the face of inevitable competition.

A FLike (the term seems to have stuck) could be a great addition to the site, it will ensure that the Lounge stays as the premier point for information on vintage clothes, and it could be a decent revenue generator through a well placed google ad.

If the Lounge does not have a developer and does not have a revenue model, that makes things tougher. Honestly my $.02 opinion the site needs both looking to the future. We have several members that can help. I have worked at managing some tech programs in the past (pre-war, to be clear) and I am willing to look at this problem within my expertise. Some other guys may have more experience and can add more.

We all want to help and we all want the Fedora Lounge to be the best place to converse, compare, have fun, and find information.

Daniel

THIS :

I understand that I’m volunteering other’s time and money and I don’t grasp all the problems and complexities such an addition would require. I’m just making observations and suggestions. I’m grateful that The Fedora Lounge exists and I give heartfelt thanks to those who have made it happen.

 

[Just Daniel]

Andy, here is the absolute most basic need to beta test one site:

1. Place a link to an off the shelf, freeware wiki on the hat section. Permissions are optional.

Not much else.

I strongly recommend adding a space for a google ad in order to generate a little revenue. It is not required, but it would help secure the Lounge as a small but steady revenue generator.

With just the above link to an off the shelf wiki, we can beta test some topics and start filling them in based on our knowledge from the Lounge discussions. If it doesn't work, delete it.

I for one am sure it will be a positive add to the site. I am less certain but still sure it is a necessary advancement.

As the other guys have note, we all love the Fedora Lounge and only want to make it better. The FLiki will do that for us and also add an optional google ad revenue stream.

Thanks for putting up with our suggestions, I am sure we can make this happen.

All the best,
Daniel

THIS :

I understand that I’m volunteering other’s time and money and I don’t grasp all the problems and complexities such an addition would require. I’m just making observations and suggestions. I’m grateful that The Fedora Lounge exists and I give heartfelt thanks to those who have made it happen.

 

[Andykev]

This "suggestion" which has been resurfaced, will be sent to "upper management".

As commented above, the "Lounge" is a social platform...a "message board". I personally am not in any way suggesting anyone who has posted on this topic cannot "full steam ahead" and make any "wiki" type resource however you see fit. Who knows, it may eclipse the 15+ years of posts, content, and topics we've all enjoyed here, not just HATS, but the myriad of other topics which greatly interest many of us. I dare say, there are some forum topics I have no interest in, and it would be fair to say, some may not care in the least about the beloved Fedora, which was the impetus subject that spawned life into this forum creation. As discussed above, it may not be practical to "just" do a wiki on HATS since there is so much treasured content on other subjects, as evidenced by our growth over the years. If you had been here, long, long ago, there was about half the forum topics compared to today.