F/s painted flight jacket

[aswatland]

Original privately purchased jacket from c. 1942-3 with nose art on the back of Der Fuehrer's Face and the joker from the 570th BS.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PAINTED-FLIGH...Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item3f0561e022

 

[Happy Jack]

Love it!!!!
:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[MudInYerEye]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this jacket dates from the early to mid 1950's. The paint looks a bit suspect too.

 

[madofusaaf]

hello Mudinyereye,

how can you tell this jacket is dated from the 50's ?????
know you this model of jacket, have you infos, documents regarding this maker?
and why do you think this paint is suspect ?

many thanks

marcel

 

[aswatland]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this jacket dates from the early to mid 1950's. The paint looks a bit suspect too.

I'm afraid you are entirely wrong. Everything about the jacket says 1940s. The original zip is typical of many I have seen on civi jackets from the mid 1940s. I have seen pics of similar non-issued jackets from the war. The spec label is also typical 1940s. Why would anyone decorate a jacket like this in the 1950s? It has been done with aircraft paint which was common practice in the war. Others have confirmed the paint work appears to be original and from the war.

 

[aswatland]

hello Mudinyereye,

how can you tell this jacket is dated from the 50's ?????
know you this model of jacket, have you infos, documents regarding this maker?
and why do you think this paint is suspect ?

many thanks

marcel

You make excellent an point Marcel. The jacket most definitely dates from the war. It has been in this country since the war. The Conmar zipper is the correct date and is quite unlike the style of Conmars used on 50s jackets. BTW the maker Central Sportwear of Boston operated during the war, being founded in 1937.

 

[madofusaaf]

many thanks Andrew to clarify this.

when someone said : it's right or it's wrong. i like that he bring the evidence of what he say.
that's the purpose of my questions to Mudinyereyes.

thanks for your response Andrew.
i'm impatient to discover the answers to my request or to start or to close a discussion.

it's everytime interesting to learn.

byeeeeeeee marcel

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I certainly wouldn't have put that Conmar before the 1950s, and the jacket neither. A 40s Conmar I would have expected to have a rectangular puller, much like the rounded-corner Talon puller. The quilted parts of the liner, too, I would date more 50s-ish than 40s. I struggle to try to date paintwork from photographs …

Do you have provenance, Andrew?

bk

 

[aswatland]

When bought the jacket it had a broken 40s Conmar slider/puller in the bottom of one of the inside pockets. It was the same puller as found on Perry A2's from 1942. I suspect the puller was replaced at some stage. I have seen identical jackets from the '40s. The artwork is certainly period and executed from aircraft paint most likely by someone connected with the 570th BS.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

One of the "bell" shaped pullers? That would change my impression of the jacket date, certainly. The liner is still a little strange for the date, but one never knows.

bk

 

[aswatland]

Spot on Pete. It was one of these early 40s Conmar pullers.

 

[scottyrocks]

I find it so fascinating seeing little pieces of history such as this.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I must add the standard proviso: the trimmings only give an approximate earliest date to a jacket. Without provenance of some kind, there is no way to tell, even with the "bell" puller, how old this jacket is. I would still be leaning generally towards the 50s rather than 40s camp for this one.

But, I haven't seen the jacket in person etc. etc.

Regarding the paintwork, there are some areas where it appears like the paint has been applied over the wear pattern/patina of the hide, which is a bit strange. Again, I haven't seen the thing up close so can't say for sure. The third set of 3 bombs down, next to Adolf's shoulder, appear to be painted over a large-ish worn area, which is odd.

 

[MudInYerEye]

Baron Kurtz has already spelled out the major problems I'd noticed with the description of this jacket. People have decorating "WWII" jackets after the fact for 50+ years, tho I suspect this one was done much more recently and probably in Thailand where they've been slapping paint on anything they can find for the past decade.
But what do I know?

 

[MudInYerEye]

That the winning bid was for roughly $700 is another strong indicator that serious collectors were able to recognize this as a clear fake. Were this actually what it purported to be, you would have had Heller's, Strongarm, and 20% of Japan bidding on it.

 

[aswatland]

Had it have been an A2 it would have certainly sold for much more. It is not in great condition, and does not have documentary provenance to link it to a member of the 570th BS. I have seen crude fakes of the picture on the jacket, but these are so obviously fakes compared with this jacket. It has never been to Thailand to be decorated having resided in the UK since the War. The paint work is not faked, but executed from aircraft paint during the 1940s. I have owned other original painted jackets from the war and this one does not say fake to me. I presume you have handled many painted jackets and are an expert on the subject?

 

[majormajor]

I think I can see both sides of the discussion here.

Whilst the jacket is certainly very old, and exhibits many indications of being a genuine 1940's jacket, I think it is fair to say that the rear paintwork was applied to this jacket when it was already in a very worn state, and does not seem to have aged greatly since. The word "Der" is painted on an area that has suffered quite a bit of friction wear. The word "Face" is painted on a much less worn area. And yet both appear to be of exactly the same state of preservation. Feasible? Yes. Likely? Less so.

I guess, at the end of the day we will never know. My guess is a jacket made towards the end of the War, and decorated (on the back) a few years later. Still a nice jacket though.

 

[MudInYerEye]

The vibrant paint on worn leather is dodgy enough but the dead giveaways are the details of the jacket itself. The zipper pull is from the 1950's, the combination shearling (or pile) and quilted rayon lining is something indicative of 50's/60's jackets and would not have appeared on a wartime-era jacket, the elasticated waist adjusters are also much indicative of a jacket circa 1955. Any one of these details would be odd enough but the combination of all of them are pretty overwhelming. It's just not what Andrew thinks it is.

 

[aswatland]

I think I can see both sides of the discussion here.

Whilst the jacket is certainly very old, and exhibits many indications of being a genuine 1940's jacket, I think it is fair to say that the rear paintwork was applied to this jacket when it was already in a very worn state, and does not seem to have aged greatly since. The word "Der" is painted on an area that has suffered quite a bit of friction wear. The word "Face" is painted on a much less worn area. And yet both appear to be of exactly the same state of preservation. Feasible? Yes. Likely? Less so.

I guess, at the end of the day we will never know. My guess is a jacket made towards the end of the War, and decorated (on the back) a few years later. Still a nice jacket though.

No one can know precisely when this 1940s jacket was painted, but the use of aircraft paint was typical of wartime work. I have seen dated jackets of this design from the 1940s and the zip puller is a 50s replacement as it originally had a bell shaped Conmar puller.

 

[MudInYerEye]

Frankly Andrew, while I respect the fact that you've memorized about as many details as a human possibly could in reference to vintage flight jackets, you are proving yourself completely unqualified to speculate on the age of vintage civilian jackets. I've been buying and selling vintage leather jackets for 20+ years and I'm 100% certain that you are just plain wrong on this one.
The last word is yours, I'm done.