Ever think some jackets are overhyped

[Marc mndt]

I'd also want to compare like for like hides. A fashion jacket like this is almost guaranteed to be lamb. The relative ease with which lamb can be worked (it can practically be done on a standard seweing machine, not the HD models required for hefty hides) compared to a heavy horsehide or steer would mean it's not like for like.

Which is not to saythere isn't a skill in producing these lamb fashion jackets to a consistent standard in the numbers they require, but it is a *different* skillset.



I remember being shocked by how flimsy the first Wested Indy I handled felt compared to what I was used to. That said, I cut my leather teeth on eighties bike jackets, when heavy meant good, and light was automatically a bad thing. I later bought a goat Wested - much lighter than the goat hide Aero use (one of my favourites), but extremely durable in practice. Would I get on a motorcycle with it? Yes - but only with an armoured, aramid-line shirt underneath.

The biggest thing I've learned over time, having handled all sorts of hides (and at all sots of priced ranges) is which leathers and designs work for me for which applications.... and which pricepoints I'm happy to pay out at, along with what I epxect from them.

I deleted my comment on the LVC jackets because I felt it didn't really contribute to the current discussion. Anyway, now its back

 

[Carlos840]

Here are a few pics ilustrating the issues i have with my Chevalier.
Let me start by saying i am aware this might look meaningless to some of you.
If you are happy with that level of stitching good for you, i personally don't think this is appropriate when you know where Himel is trying to position themselves in the market.

Wavy uneven top stitch:

Other side, same seam, just as wavy and uneven:

One of the "thread loops" on either side of the gusset was badly done and tore the leather, jacket was delivered that way.
It hasn't gotten worst, but there is a 3mm tear at a place that is IMO one of the most important of the back design:

Follow the red arrow seam upwards:

You can see the part bellow the half belt is nicely done, it wasn't pulled too tight, the first seam is invisible, hidden under the fold as it should be.
The part above the half belt was pulled far too tight before being top stitched, exposing the first seam, there is no visible fold to hide the seam. (look at the two decorative seams just right of it, they don't suffer from the same problem...)
The mirror seam on the right side of the jacket isn't as bad but it isn't far.
The pits show the same problems, you can see both seams when one should be hidden under the fold.
It gives the entire jacket the impression it is being "pulled appart" and looks pretty messy IMO.
It just feels like there was little attention to detail during the stitching.

Admitedly i would not care as much if i had spent 1000-1500 dollars in that jacket.
As it stand i paid 2250$, IMO for that money these mistakes shouldn't be present.

For that kind of money i now expect laser straight stitching like this:

 

[Imuricecreamman]

Here are a few pics ilustrating the issues i have with my Chevalier.
Let me start by saying i am aware this might look meaningless to some of you.
If you are happy with that level of stitching good for you, i personally don't think this is appropriate when you know where Himel is trying to position themselves in the market.

Wavy uneven top stitch:

Other side, same seam, just as wavy and uneven:

One of the "thread loops" on either side of the gusset was badly done and tore the leather, jacket was delivered that way.
It hasn't gotten worst, but there is a 3mm tear at a place that is IMO one of the most important of the back design:

Follow the red arrow seam upwards:

You can see the part bellow the half belt is nicely done, it wasn't pulled too tight, the first seam is invisible, hidden under the fold as it should be.
The part above the half belt was pulled far too tight before being top stitched, exposing the first seam, there is no visible fold to hide the seam. (look at the two decorative seams just right of it, they don't suffer from the same problem...)
The mirror seam on the right side of the jacket isn't as bad but it isn't far.
The pits show the same problems, you can see both seams when one should be hidden under the fold.
It gives the entire jacket the impression it is being "pulled appart" and looks pretty messy IMO.
It just feels like there was little attention to detail during the stitching.

Admitedly i would not care as much if i had spent 1000-1500 dollars in that jacket.
As it stand i paid 2250$, IMO for that money these mistakes shouldn't be present.

For that kind of money i now expect laser straight stitching like this:

That is actually pretty wild how bad that is. When you consider the complexity and beauty of that jacket, those details REALLY matter. I can see why Aero puts their most experienced machinists on their more complex patterns and jackets.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Goodness Carlos that would annoy me. I don't see myself being willing to pay that kind of money for a jacket no matter who made it, but if I did I would expect straight seams. I don't mind handmade things looking rustic, but this looks hastily put together. On the left side of the last Himel shot (on the left side a few inches above the red arrow) it also looks like the seams at the end have come loose or is that just a camera illusion?

 

[Carlos840]

Goodness Carlos that would annoy me. I don't see myself being willing to pay that kind of money for a jacket no matter who made it, but if I did I would expect straight seams. I don't mind handmade things looking rustic, but this looks hastily put together. On the left side of the last Himel shot (on the left side a few inches above the red arrow) it also looks like the seams at the end have come loose or is that just a camera illusion?

There is indeed a "repair" in that area.
It looks to me like they ran out of thread/broke the thread mid seam and started again leaving a few loose threads.
If you pull on it the center seam gaps a little bit but it hasn't gotten worst.
It's the main reason i don't wear that jacket, it looks beautiful, but i feel like if i wore it i would damage it.
It's a jacket that spends it's time being looked at, not worn...

Edit: if you look at the first two pics you can see the threads poking through halfway up the seam. That seam definitely doesn't feel as tight as the mirror seam on the other side of the jacket. If i pull it appart lightly i can see lining...

 

[Seb Lucas]

Did you ever get to hang some of them up on your wall as art?

 

[Imuricecreamman]

Goodness Carlos that would annoy me. I don't see myself being willing to pay that kind of money for a jacket no matter who made it, but if I did I would expect straight seams. I don't mind handmade things looking rustic, but this looks hastily put together. On the left side of the last Himel shot (on the left side a few inches above the red arrow) it also looks like the seams at the end have come loose or is that just a camera illusion?

I mostly wear more "rustic" type of jackets where these types of mistakes doesn't show in the same manner, but this jacket is made to be a work of art, it's beauty is so much of it's purpose that these flaws would completely ruin it for me.

 

[Carlos840]

Did you ever get to hang some of them up on your wall as art?

Not yet, i am still working on fixing other parts of the house, because i do everything alone or with the help of a couple friends things are going at a slow pace.
I am now focusing on more important rooms (building a recording studio in the basement), but as soon as i get to my office and install my wall display hangers you guys will be the first to know about it!
I really want to have it done this year, and the Chevalier is definitely a jacket that will end up hanging on the wall!

I mostly wear more "rustic" type of jackets where these types of mistakes doesn't show in the same manner, but this jacket is made to be a work of art, it's beauty is so much of it's purpose that these flaws would completely ruin it for me.

That is exactly how i feel about it.

 

[Brandrea33]

My apologies, I made a reckless, over generalizing comment, you are indeed right. Point I was trying to make is that alot of these Japanese brands will outsource the work, and my description of who they commission out to was an over exaggeration.

But I'm not being entirely inaccurate, as FW do not make their own stuff ...

I didn’t realize that Freewheelers doesn’t make their own jackets.

There’s something to me about buying from a company that you know is making the product.

Learning new things here everyday.

 

[Brandrea33]

I’m curious to know if the makers of these jackets frequent the forum and review these comments. I know I’ve seen posts by Greg from FL.

I wonder how David Himel would respond to your experience with your jacket @Carlos840? I see he has your review posted on his website under testimonials.

 

[Mich486]

I went on Himel website early this morning and noticed Carlos pic on the home page as well and found it quite funny. I wonder whether he’s gonna update the review with his post above...

 

[Blackadder]

I didn’t realize that Freewheelers doesn’t make their own jackets.

There’s something to me about buying from a company that you know is making the product.

Learning new things here everyday.

I reckon that the situation may be a bit different from what you think. FW and RC used to work under the same RM roof. Owner of FW used to be in charge of the Joe McCoy workwear line for RM while I think but not sure RC is a leather guy at RM. The Few/RMNZ used to be the leather arm of RM too. RM and Toyo used to be in full cooperation and RM started the whole BR military line for Toyo. So it is not a simple sourcing from OEM type of situation but more like a continuation of the division of work, only at different companies.
You can read about some of that on RM's wiki page.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ザ・リアルマッコイズ

 

[red devil]

My first reaction was to justify these "flaws" as an inevitable disadvantage of human intervention.

It is a natural reaction.

For Japanese hand made products, people often use the term "wabi-sabi" to excuse flaws. Where the real thing is about showing the imperfection of nature, but "human touch", "wabi-sabi" and others are just excuses.

In this case, it is real wabi sabi.

 

[JMax]

I reckon that the situation may be a bit different from what you think. FW and RC used to work under the same RM roof. Owner of FW used to be in charge of the Joe McCoy workwear line for RM while I think but not sure RC is a leather guy at RM. The Few/RMNZ used to be the leather arm of RM too. RM and Toyo used to be in full cooperation and RM started the whole BR military line for Toyo. So it is not a simple sourcing from OEM type of situation but more like a continuation of the division of work, only at different companies.
You can read about some of that on RM's wiki page.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ザ・リアルマッコイズ

 

[Ayeteael]

I really like these types of discussions bc it forces me inward to evaluate my own shopping preferences and expectations. It seems that much of the disappointment related to wonky stitching, loose seems, and overall sloppiness stems from the buyer's expectation. Hype raises expectations. For some people, the expectation of a $2000+ jacket is that it will be perfectly executed. For others, the value of the jacket is reflected in the unique hide, cut, design, or exclusivity (or some combination) - not whether the jacket was laser stitched as if done by a machine on an assembly line. I don't presume to say one expectation is better than the other. It's just fascinating to read about what influences each of us when we make purchasing decisions.

 

[Blackadder]

View attachment 311295

Until you read about the Japanese denim brands.

 

[Will Zach]

Here are a few pics ilustrating the issues i have with my Chevalier.
Let me start by saying i am aware this might look meaningless to some of you.
If you are happy with that level of stitching good for you, i personally don't think this is appropriate when you know where Himel is trying to position themselves in the market.

Wavy uneven top stitch:

Other side, same seam, just as wavy and uneven:

One of the "thread loops" on either side of the gusset was badly done and tore the leather, jacket was delivered that way.
It hasn't gotten worst, but there is a 3mm tear at a place that is IMO one of the most important of the back design:

Follow the red arrow seam upwards:

You can see the part bellow the half belt is nicely done, it wasn't pulled too tight, the first seam is invisible, hidden under the fold as it should be.
The part above the half belt was pulled far too tight before being top stitched, exposing the first seam, there is no visible fold to hide the seam. (look at the two decorative seams just right of it, they don't suffer from the same problem...)
The mirror seam on the right side of the jacket isn't as bad but it isn't far.
The pits show the same problems, you can see both seams when one should be hidden under the fold.
It gives the entire jacket the impression it is being "pulled appart" and looks pretty messy IMO.
It just feels like there was little attention to detail during the stitching.

Admitedly i would not care as much if i had spent 1000-1500 dollars in that jacket.
As it stand i paid 2250$, IMO for that money these mistakes shouldn't be present.

For that kind of money i now expect laser straight stitching like this:

I don't know what to say. Carlos, you are being very charitable and forgiving by not blowing a fuse over this. This is sloppy. If Himelator reads this he should offer to replace the jacket. This is really bad for a $2000+ jacket.

 

[handymike]

I thought Wabi Sabi referred to imperfections caused over time, like repairs or scuffs- that add to the eventual character or patina of an item.

This is an example. The gold veins are where the bowl was broken. The repairs are highlighted and embraced as part of the “experience” of the item. In jackets, this could be a knick, artfully done repair, or even a road rash that was creatively blended in by a previous owner.
Wabi Sabi is part of a revered item’s story, it shows respect and history, not an excuse for poor workmanship.
Maybe this is a better illustration.

This jacket was carefully repaired, but you still you can see evidence of the work. It isn’t a highlight or done shoddily.

 

[Carlos840]

I don't know what to say. Carlos, you are being very charitable and forgiving by not blowing a fuse over this. This is sloppy. If Himelator reads this he should offer to replace the jacket. This is really bad for a $2000+ jacket.

Honestly, it has been two years, i don't really care anymore.
Himel was the step that lead me to better makers like FW, RMC and LW.
I doubt that if i sent him an email saying "i was originally very happy with this jacket, but since then i learnt more things and i now realise it is pretty poorly made, could you please remake it?" Anything good would come out of it...

I take is as a learning experience, not dissimillar to my experience with Diamond Dave in a way.
Both of them taught me not to fall for hype trains...

I have also thought about asking him to remove my review, but i think it would be a little bit petty.
That review has probably helped many people who are now very happy with their jackets take the jump. I like that...
To me buying a Himel ended up a disappointing experience, but i have higher than average standards.
I am sure most of his customers end up very pleased with what they bought.

 

[red devil]

I thought Wabi Sabi referred to imperfections caused over time, like repairs or scuffs- that add to the eventual character or patina of an item.
View attachment 311296
This is an example. The gold veins are where the bowl was broken. The repairs are highlighted and embraced as part of the “experience” of the item. In jackets, this could be a knick, artfully done repair, or even a road rash that was creatively blended in by a previous owner.
Wabi Sabi is part of a revered item’s story, it shows respect and history, not an excuse for poor workmanship.
Maybe this is a better illustration.
View attachment 311297
This jacket was carefully repaired, but you still you can see evidence of the work. It isn’t a highlight or done shoddily.
View attachment 311298

There is that as well, the bowl you show is also a typical example. I don't know how far this goes, the previous example I pointed to was shown to me by a Japanese tea practitioner as an example.

What I can say for sure, is that I have seen it misused to excuse flaws in handmade products.