Ever think some jackets are overhyped

[Ayeteael]

Tardy to the party but I’ve enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread. I agree with many of the perspectives shared. All that I’ll add is from my own experience, there’s a direct correlation between my passion, time, and money invested in a hobby and my susceptibility to hype. Probably the reason why I cycle through multiple hobbies - I need a cooling off period lest I fall victim to the latest hype train.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

For that kind of money, you ought to be. @dudewuttheheck is with his Freewheelers jackets, having little to no complaints whatsoever and his expectations bar is set pretty darn high. There are brands out there that will deliver you a... Well, something you might consider close to perfect. Of course, it all depends what you're after but I've read a lot of similar testimonies on Himel Bros. from members here who've had jackets by just about every top tier maker under the sun and all of these people eventually settled for a maker that indeed does seem make them over the moon with what they bought, be it Freewheelers, Thedi or Lost Worlds.
So I'd say it's not unrealistic to expect anything less for $2500+, how much a new Himel costs. I don't think any other maker charges more for their jackets right now, not even Japanese ones with all the import taxes and all that included.

Literally the only thing I have ever disliked about my Freewheelers jackets are the sleeve lengths and the fact that I shrunk out of a couple of them, and both of those issues are my fault. I'm not saying they will be worth the price for everyone, but I am indeed still over the moon with all of mine, even though I've owned some of them for years. If you're spending even over $1,000 I think you should pretty much feel like that with your jackets. I was pretty much that happy with my first Himel jacket. It wasn't as nicely made as my Freewheelers or RMC jackets, but the flaws were very minor. Still, my tastes have changed and I don't see myself going with another Himel anytime soon.

The misaligned panel is a thing eh, it's made on purpose. Many Crosszips have it. It's a feature not a mistake or an accident when making the jacket.

Example: My FW Sunset and @dudewuttheheck

View attachment 310894

View attachment 310895

Yup, I'm pretty sure that this is on purpose. I have seen a lot of pictures of sunset jackets and I'm pretty sure they all look like this. Just in case, I went back and looked at a few more photos of other examples and they all looked like this. The example of the original jacket that I think they copied looked like this as well. To be fair, I'm not sure if that is the one they copied, but it certainly would quite similar if it's not the exact one. I'm pretty certain the way these jackets are aligned is purposeful. My RMC isn't aligned either and I also think that is on purpose.

 

[Carlos840]

What I'm also saying is that these issues aren't unique either, and depending on the person evaluating the piece, it can either be a flaw or charm, something that was done incorrectly, or something that reminds you it was done by a person and not a machine. See, all of these points are looking at the same thing but come away with a different feeling. For instance, I don't care that Himel has 9 stitches per inch, when I can clearly see in other pictures from other posts that the stitching isn't always the straightest, or tightest, or consistent, etc etc. It's actually very human. People buy a Himel because they want a Himel, and IMO buying one second hand defeats the purpose. One of the benefits of buying a Himel is being able to give input to sizing and style.

It seems you are going back to the "humans are imperfect, as such, human made things should be imperfect" train of thought...
I personally don't understand this.
If you pay someone to paint your house, and every wall to ceiling cut is wobbly, is that good? Is your house now more charmful or did you employ a bad painter?
If you go to the garage and the mechanic misaligns your wheels? Is that charm or a bad job?
If you buy a hand made guitar and the frets are uneven, is that charm? Or a bad luthier?

There are a bunch of things that we expect humans to be able to do perfectly, but for some reason leather jackets aren't part of them, leather jackets need defects to look handmade?
If you know something was handmade, why would you need a reminder of that fact through deffects?

Also, one has no input to "style" when buying a Himel. He doesn't accept changes to his designs...

 

[Superfluous]

Also, one has no input to "style" when buying a Himel. He doesn't accept changes to his designs...

Yes he does.

@Carlos840 I respect you immensely, but you clearly have a bug up your a** for Himel, as you have repeatedly condemned his jackets throughout this thread -- more so than any other poster. As a long time patron of Himel, it inevitably becomes a bit personal at some point. I know that is not what you intended but, when you repeatedly beat down the brand for which I happen to own four jackets, it ultimately translates to "Superfluous is an idiot who wasted thousands of dollars on four over-hyped, inferior jackets." Again, not your intent but the inevitable result.

Regardless of what you or anyone else might think, I continue to thoroughly enjoy my Himel jackets -- all of which have impeccable stitching -- and I have zero regrets. Yes, I know your predictable response: Superfluous drank the Himel koolaid. Maybe so, but I don't need you to choke me on it, along with the many other Himel owners on TFL. Again, not your intent but the inevitable consequence of relentless criticism.

I think its time for me to bail on this thread. Better yet, I probably need a vacation from the forum so that I can enjoy my over-hyped, over-priced, inferior jackets in peace. I'm out.

 

[Edward]

IMO that is BS.
Something being artisanal means it should be better made that somethign made in a factory.
If the same person is making a jacket from start to finish i expect better quality than if something was made Schott style (basically a chain where each step is executed by a different person.)
If Thedi, Lost Worlds, Field Leathers and many others manage to make an artisanal product that is IMO perfect 99% of the time why would you excuse Himel?

Brand irrespective, I can see how something less than perfect could more easily hit the market from a business set up on the one-man model. A bigger brand, a company employing a number of people, can afford to sell the occasional oopsie at a discount rate, or sometimes write it off. (If it happens too often, they can change the machinist.) If a one-man maker sells a jacket at a heavy discount or writes it off, that's a day he loses a significant proportion or all of his income.

What level of imperfection - or none - and at what price the buyer is prepared to tolerate from any brand is another argument, of course. It must make it much trickier to get a business of the ground, though, if an oopsie means you have to choose between eating tonight and future reputation.

It's notable that there have bene many discussions on here over the years as to expectations vs price point on these issues. I'd love to know what different makers see as their red lines for QC standards; it'd be fascinating to compare the framework for commercial decisions against those of the customer-enthusiast. There will clearly be some overlap with market expectation, but each will be tempered by other factors that may differ.

 

[Marc mndt]

Yes he does.

@Carlos840 I respect you immensely, but you clearly have a bug up your a** for Himel, as you have repeatedly condemned his jackets throughout this thread -- more so than any other poster. As a long time patron of Himel, it inevitably becomes a bit personal at some point. I know that is not what you intended but, when you repeatedly beat down the brand for which I happen to own four jackets, it ultimately translates to "Superfluous is an idiot who wasted thousands of dollars on four over-hyped, inferior jackets." Again, not your intent but the inevitable result.

Regardless of what you or anyone else might think, I continue to thoroughly enjoy my Himel jackets -- all of which have impeccable stitching -- and I have zero regrets. Yes, I know your predictable response: Superfluous drank the Himel koolaid. Maybe so, but I don't need you to choke me on it, along with the many other Himel owners on TFL. Again, not your intent but the inevitable consequence of relentless criticism.

I think its time for me to bail on this thread. Better yet, I probably need a vacation from the forum so that I can enjoy my over-hyped, over-priced, inferior jackets in peace. I'm out.

I experienced this thread differently. To me this was/is about sharing views and opinions on different jacket makers in a substantiated manner. Imo, no one was calling anybody an idiot. If @Carlos840 dislikes Himel for one reason or the other, that should be ok right? That doesn't say anything about other members who rightfully enjoy wearing their Himel's for their own reasons.

Edit : I think this has been a really interesting discussion and I've enjoyed reading this thread because of the above (substantiating our opinions, not just saying things as an emotional response)

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I will certainly agree with @Carlos840 that the idea of "people are imperfect so we should accept imperfect work" is absolutely ridiculous.

I absolutely despise the idea that "handmade means mistakes". In my experience, it's an excuse that people use to justify the flaws on their relatively cheap boots. Whatever the reason it's said, it's untrue. The best made item I own are my White Kloud boots. They are ridiculously well made. I've seen bespoke dress shoes less cleanly constructed than these boots and they have more hand work than any other pair of boots that I own.

Now, this is not to condemn Himel at all. I owned two Himel jackets. One was absolutely incredible. My measurements were perfectly nailed and the jacket was extremely well made. The second one was also very well made. Not perfect, but very well made made and not with the mistakes shown here. I would not be OK with this jacket shown in this thread if I bought it new because I expect better of Himel jackets. I'm not going to forgive him or any other maker by the logic of humans being flawed, so they make flawed objects.

The reality in my experience is that the more hand made an item of clothing is (if the maker is an expert and passionate about their work), usually the better and more cleanly made it is. This is especially true with the boots that I have. I could even show pictures to demonstrate this if anyone wants.

 

[Downunder G Man]

Yes he does.

[I think its time for me to bail on this thread. Better yet, I probably need a vacation from the forum so that I can enjoy my over-hyped, over-priced, inferior jackets in peace. I'm out.

Nooo. don't go mate. I have no "expensive" jackets ( well by comparison here !) BUT I likes lookin' at em big time.
Yours a prime example....

 

[Marc mndt]

The reality in my experience is that the more hand made an item of clothing is (if the maker is an expert and passionate about their work), usually the better and more cleanly made it is. This is especially true with the boots that I have. I could even show pictures to demonstrate this if anyone wants.

Your argument about people being passionate about their work is an interesting one. I wonder whether the OP's jacket was made out of passion, or whether it was made by a machinist who gets payed by the hour and doesn't really care. I can't image someone who's truly passionate about their job producing a jacket like this. Unless it's an underskilled machinist. But at Himel's prices, I'd expect my jacket to be sewn by someone who's highly experienced (and skilled).

This bag was custom made out of 1.7mm thick Badalassi cowhide by an Italian artisan. He did a pretty neat stitch job, especially considering the thickness of the leather. A neatly stitched bag like this can be bought for just $875. No human errors, just neat stitching.
Considering this, why should it be acceptable to get a sloppily stitched jacket for $2k+? I don't think there's an excuse.

 

[navetsea]

in drawing a sketch, one can make tastefully straight line freehand, there is wobble in the line, not laser straight like done with a ruler but as a whole it looks straight and artistically pleasing and it can't be faked by doing it slowly , I think in sewing the same look can be achieved too, and I'm fine with that, it showed character, confidence, and craftmanship, and it looks different than a mistake or just poor sewing.

 

[Carlos840]

Yes he does.

@Carlos840 I respect you immensely, but you clearly have a bug up your a** for Himel, as you have repeatedly condemned his jackets throughout this thread -- more so than any other poster. As a long time patron of Himel, it inevitably becomes a bit personal at some point. I know that is not what you intended but, when you repeatedly beat down the brand for which I happen to own four jackets, it ultimately translates to "Superfluous is an idiot who wasted thousands of dollars on four over-hyped, inferior jackets." Again, not your intent but the inevitable result.

Regardless of what you or anyone else might think, I continue to thoroughly enjoy my Himel jackets -- all of which have impeccable stitching -- and I have zero regrets. Yes, I know your predictable response: Superfluous drank the Himel koolaid. Maybe so, but I don't need you to choke me on it, along with the many other Himel owners on TFL. Again, not your intent but the inevitable consequence of relentless criticism.

I think its time for me to bail on this thread. Better yet, I probably need a vacation from the forum so that I can enjoy my over-hyped, over-priced, inferior jackets in peace. I'm out.

Super, i most definitely do not have "bug up my a** for Himel", i am just pointing out that all makers should be judged under the same rules and standards.
If we call out a bad stitch on an Aero, a Schott, or any other brand we should also call it out on an expensive Himel.
The idea that a Himel jacket should get a pass on poor workmanship just because it is a Himel and people who get a himel "focus on other intangible things" is IMO BS.
This way of thinking is to my mind even harder to understand when i see all the superlatives used when describing Himel and his team's work. The "leather jacket guru", the "genuis leather worker", the whole "no one stitches like we do it anymore" "we stitch slower and stitch neater than everybody else", "have only one good thing" etc.
Why should i expect less than what the brand itself says it is capable of doing?

All i am saying is that to me the enjoyement i get from a jacket is directly linked to how well made it is.
Unfortunately in my case i get very little enjoyment from my particular jacket because it is IMO pretty poorly made.
I completely acknowledge the fact that that might be irrelevent to you, i am just saying it is rellevent to me.
I also think people should know about it before they order, it might save them a disappointing purchase.
I had never seen a Himel in the flesh when i ordered mine, all i had seen where your review, as well as others on here, all calling Himel a Master and saying his jackets where the best. Had i seen the jacket i was going to receive before i placed my order, or had i been able to inspect that jacket in a store before buying it i would not have bought it, it just doesn't pass my QC...

Edit: and i will acknowledge that my current expectations are much higher than they where at the time i received the Chevalier.
Back then i had only owned Schott, Alexander, Aero and Lewis Leathers, Himel was my first big leather jacket purchase, i was still a noob.
I hadn't experienced Freewheelers, RMC, Lost Worlds, Vanson and many others.
That was my problem with that Himel, it was the most expensive jacket i had bought, but most other jackets jackets (cheaper and similarly priced) i bought after it ended up better made! (end edit)

I honestly don't care what you spend your money on, unless you spend your evenings blending 100 dollar bills and throwing them out the window i really have no place calling you an idiot about your spendings...
Spend your money on what makes you happy, i couldn't care less.

Lastly, you shouldn't take all this personally, it has nothing to do with you.
I keep reading all over TFL that Stuart is an idiot and a horrible person, i don't take it personally even though LW is obviously my favourite brand.
It confuses me, as i have never had anything but a friendly contact with Stuart (i was on the phone with him for 4 hours last week! The man is the biggest leather jacket nerd you can imagine!), but i definitely don't feel the need to leave TFL because people hate on LW on a regular basis... All i can do is show my jackets and talk about my experience and hope people won't believe the negative hype.

Edit: I forgot to address the "styling" point.
I was under the impression that Himel didn't allow modifications to his designs, at least he didn't allow them when i asked.
I am pretty sure that if i call him today, telling him i want an Imperial with a D pocket and a different cuff he is going to refuse to do that. (after my Chevalier i asked him to make me a LaBrea copy, starting with a Ross Mk1 and giving it the design cues of the LaBrea, he refused to do it saying his designs where his own and he was not interrested in doing repros.)
That is what i meant when i said "Himel didn't accept changes to his designs".
You might be able to change the lining and ask for a tapering or something like that, but you can't "pic and mix" his patterns like you can with Greg from Field Leathers.

 

[hondurasdave47]

Your argument about people being passionate about their work is an interesting one. I wonder whether the OP's jacket was made out of passion, or whether it was made by a machinist who gets payed by the hour and doesn't really care. I can't image someone who's truly passionate about their job producing a jacket like this. Unless it's an underskilled machinist. But at Himel's prices, I'd expect my jacket to be sewn by someone who's highly experienced (and skilled).

This bag was custom made out of 1.7mm thick Badalassi cowhide by an Italian artisan. He did a pretty neat stitch job, especially considering the thickness of the leather. A neatly stitched bag like this can be bought for just $875. No human errors, just neat stitching.
Considering this, why should it be acceptable to get a sloppily stitched jacket for $2k+? I don't think there's an excuse.
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Quick tangent: Marc, that bag is gorgeous! Are you able to share any information about the maker?

 

[Marc mndt]

Quick tangent: Marc, that bag is gorgeous! Are you able to share any information about the maker?

It's made by Infinity, a small artisan workshop in Florence. They have some ready made bags listed on their website but they also do made to order.

https://www.infinityfirenze.com/collections/unisex-bags/products/doctors-bag

They have plenty of leathers to choose from. Also exotics like alligator.

Here's a photo of their workshop

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thr...stuart-interviewed.101380/page-7#post-2701657

 

[hondurasdave47]

It's made by Infinity, a small artisan workshop in Florence. They have some ready made bags listed on their website but they also do made to order.

https://www.infinityfirenze.com/collections/unisex-bags/products/doctors-bag

They have plenty of leathers to choose from. Also exotics like alligator.

Here's a photo of their workshop

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/lost-worlds’-founder-stuart-interviewed.101380/page-7#post-2701657

Thanks, Marc!

 

[TheDonEffect]

It seems you are going back to the "humans are imperfect, as such, human made things should be imperfect" train of thought...
I personally don't understand this.
If you pay someone to paint your house, and every wall to ceiling cut is wobbly, is that good? Is your house now more charmful or did you employ a bad painter?
If you go to the garage and the mechanic misaligns your wheels? Is that charm or a bad job?
If you buy a hand made guitar and the frets are uneven, is that charm? Or a bad luthier?

There are a bunch of things that we expect humans to be able to do perfectly, but for some reason leather jackets aren't part of them, leather jackets need defects to look handmade?
If you know something was handmade, why would you need a reminder of that fact through deffects?

Also, one has no input to "style" when buying a Himel. He doesn't accept changes to his designs...

Again, I agree with you 1000%. I don't subscribe to imperfections being character, imperfections are flaws. I don't pay for accidental character, lol.

But, I approach handmade, artisanal products with a healthy dose of skepticism, because it's already going to cost more because it does not benefit from economies of scale. So it's already inherently expensive from the start. Then, do I trust that a well managed team doing specialized tasks will do a better job than one specialist doing all the tasks? Historically, not the case, but there are exceptions. And hopefully these exceptions are the likes of Thedi, LW, and in this case Himel. My observations? I mean, the times they get it right, vs the times the likes of Aero get it right, when factoring in price, it's totally not worth it.

You give Sean at 5* the same pattern and materials as Field, set the standard, and pay them both the same, and have them both produce 100 jackets to the same deadline, well, I know a bit of an unfair comparison but you get the point I'm trying to reach.

But send them both the same one off order, well the playing field is different. But as far as manufacturing goes, it's the same situation.

And if all things equal, I wouldn't want my jacket made on a Monday after a holiday, or after some bad news broke, I'd want mine made on a day where the maker had a good night sleep, woke up inspired to give their best, had a good breakfast, etc.

Anyway, all this comes from me researching Himels, watched his videos on youtube, my takeaway was... so what? I have a similar feeling with the Japanese makers as well, my takeaway was... so who makes the jackets again?

And it just made me appreciate the Aeros of the world more, and I even thought about getting something mde with Field while he's still super motivated to grow his business and is making all the jackets with his own two hands (I hope this is still the case) to a standard befitting for a young company trying to make a name for itself. I have more faith in that then someone peddling to me about 9 stitches per inch, after I read that people have found elementary errors in their garments.

With all that said, I get why people buy Himels, totally understandable. I just fear for him that he may be losing sight of what brought him to the dance to begin with.

 

[Mich486]

I don’t even know what we are talking about here anymore but I think Himel jackets are pretty awesome. Call it hype but after seeing and handling my fair share of leather jackets every time I see a Himel I see quality.

The only reason I don’t have one is because they are so damn expensive. Waiting for one to come up in my size here in the classifieds!

 

[El Marro]

I was under the impression that Himel didn't allow modifications to his designs, at least he didn't allow them when i asked.

This is one of those funny things that might come down to who asked who and what kind of mood they were in at the time. I have read several times of members here claiming that they asked Stuart of LW whether or not it was possible make a certain change or modification and the answer was a firm no!
When I ordered from Stuart he allowed me to make several modifications to the jackets and he was happy to complete them, for a fee of course. I like to flatter myself that this is because of my charming wit and friendly nature, but it could just as easily be that I caught him at the right time.

 

[powerserge]

@Carlos840 I just went back and looked over your review of the Chevalier and it seemed fairly positive. I’m sure it’s been mentioned and I could have missed it, but what about your Himel has you viewing it in a different light? Did you ever contact him regarding your issues with the jacket?

 

[Brandrea33]

It’s also quite possible that as with most things, perfection is not achieved with every single product just because of price.

Some swear by the Ford 150, best built truck in America ... or is that a Dodge? My dad drove Chevy his whole life, never had an issue ....

The point I’m trying to make is that there are issues with almost every jacket maker out there it seems (except maybe Freewheelers by the sounds of it).

So I think I’m prepared to live with some imperfections now that I understand more about this craft with my still super limited knowledge set.

The question comes down to price point and value for money and that’s why I’m excited to try another maker. At least then I have “two good things” I can compare

 

[red devil]

so who makes the jackets again?

Sorry, I will be anwering litterally regarding Freewheelers, I don't know exactly for the other mahor ones. The Freewheelers are made in the Rainbow Country factory which has been labelled as the best in Japan by several shopkeeper in the business I talked to in Japan (not just Tokyo).

There quite a few one man shops as well.

This is one of those funny things that might come down to who asked who and what kind of mood they were in at the time. I have read several times of members here claiming that they asked Stuart of LW whether or not it was possible make a certain change or modification and the answer was a firm no!
When I ordered from Stuart he allowed me to make several modifications to the jackets and he was happy to complete them, for a fee of course. I like to flatter myself that this is because of my charming wit and friendly nature, but it could just as easily be that I caught him at the right time.

LW accepts full customs, but not as a first order I think. A lot can go wrong with a full custom when it comes from someone with inexperiened with the wrong expectations. That is just me speculating though, so take it with a grain of salt.

The point I’m trying to make is that there are issues with almost every jacket maker out there it seems (except maybe Freewheelers by the sounds of it).

Even they get a few issues, but top tier makers have really highly trained machinists to start with. So their results are much more consistent.