Ever think some jackets are overhyped

[Edward]

I don't ride but that makes perfect sense, loungers also mention kangaroo skin in the same breath.

Roo is the only hide I'm aware off that can beat goat for abrasion resistance. It's not common, though, outside of professional racewear. Goat is very common in motorcycle gloves, for the obvious reason that it's a lot more flexible than a heavy hide for that application. A decent, hefty hide will probably do just as well for the average slide for a civilian motorcyclist, of course - not many of them have to consider the possibility of an off at 200mph...

That’s an old military motorcycle jacket. Similar to the two vintage jackets I have, but I’d say the leather on @Carlos840 jacket is even nicer. Best goat I’ve seen. In comparison to all modern goat that I’ve seen and handled these vintage jackets are a lot thicker. I’ve been wondering why lately. Could it be that today goats are slaughtered at an earlier age, therefore they have thinner skins? Just a guess.

Could be any one of a number of variables, down to breed of goat that's common, variation from place to place, variation in diet (c/f how you never see white dog poo now, but it was very common back up til the early eighties, when animal welfare laws changed and manufacturers couldn't get away with bulking it out with so much bonemeal...). Organic substances like animal skin can vary hugely even from one animal to the next. Where the goatskin comes from can matter. Goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world today. Much of the goatskin used now comes from India and Pakistan,which will have all sorts of variances from the very light goat used in the US back in the 40s for the USN jackets, or the much thicker stuff used in those Swedish jackets, both types back then being more locally sourced that would be the case today. There's a significant difference in weight between the Wested and Aero goat I've owned, so. The Wested is much lighter, ideal for a real Summer jacket. Weight of lamb, but much tougher. The Aero goat is one of my favourite hides for anything. If it can in the range of colours steer and horse do, It would likely be my all-out favourite.

The Norshore or the Swedish one?
The Norshore is actually russet that he hand dyes black, the inside is left russet, no liner.
I should have it in a couple weeks, will post more pics.
It looks really ncie to me, but i haven't seen much goatskin.

Norshor - is that Mark 'Fishmoek' that used to post round here? I have (somewhere) possibly the first jacket of his to make it into the wild, before he set up in business. Lovely piece, though it's going to have to be sold eventually as I don't think I'll get small enough to wear it again. Yours looks nice. I love how the side straps are of a piece with the half belt, cute design touch. Is that of his own inclination, or is it a replica of a specific jacket? Also interested to see it's unlined; I'm considering an unlined jacklet for a Summer option. Does he have a website running currently?

 

[red devil]

Roo is the only hide I'm aware off that can beat goat for abrasion resistance. It's not common, though, outside of professional racewear. Goat is very common in motorcycle gloves, for the obvious reason that it's a lot more flexible than a heavy hide for that application. A decent, hefty hide will probably do just as well for the average slide for a civilian motorcyclist, of course - not many of them have to consider the possibility of an off at 200mph...

Kangaroo has the best abrasion resistance to weight ratio in leathers, really makes for a nice racing suit.

BKS made to measure also offer thick cowhide as an option, wonder if the one that was in the crash was cowhide or kangaroo

https://www.bksleather.co.uk/news/police-biker-crash

 

[Downunder G Man]

I have a couple of goat jackets in black from Simmons Bilt. A J-100 café racer and a Nebraska.
Both well built indeed. Straight off the peg in 44" for a collaboration with Proconsul LA.
I ride a Harley and both jackets are regular features on the lounge.
Being an "Ex-Scotsman" I like the fact that they are Made in Scotland by craftsmen and women.

I did have an excellent kangaroo trucker jacket made in Australia , actually custom made for the guy I bought it from.
He had given them 20 years ago his fave Levis denim trucker and had them copy it EXACTLY in black roo hide.
The company name escapes me this evening but they are long gone.

I (ahem !) "outgrew" it and maybe 5 years ago gave it to my 4 years younger and way more fit brother.
I have no photos of that jacket and had it for 10+ years !

 

[Edward]

Kangaroo has the best abrasion resistance to weight ratio in leathers, really makes for a nice racing suit.

BKS made to measure also offer thick cowhide as an option, wonder if the one that was in the crash was cowhide or kangaroo

https://www.bksleather.co.uk/news/police-biker-crash

Eeps. I'd guess cow on the basis that all the UK police leathers I've ever seen were cow - plus it's vastly more readily available than roo (buying in that sort of bulk for an entire police fleet, availability and price matter). Clearly a quality build, though - a good treatment of Pecards, and that suit looks like it has the capacity to see a few more years of riding yet. I would trust some of the high end modern textile stuff to protect me as well in a crash, but I've yet to see anything artificial that would be worth wearing again after such an off.

 

[navetsea]

I think if not for speed (racing), a little thicker heavier cow will perform the same, sure won't be as light as kangaroo but for policemen why bother kangaroo, I bet they are already a bit heavier built to begin with saving weight is not an issue

 

[red devil]

Eeps. I'd guess cow on the basis that all the UK police leathers I've ever seen were cow - plus it's vastly more readily available than roo (buying in that sort of bulk for an entire police fleet, availability and price matter). Clearly a quality build, though - a good treatment of Pecards, and that suit looks like it has the capacity to see a few more years of riding yet. I would trust some of the high end modern textile stuff to protect me as well in a crash, but I've yet to see anything artificial that would be worth wearing again after such an off.

Yes, it is very likely to be cowhide, but I couldn't tell for sure from looking at the picture. According to Brian, the owner, textile didn't come close to leather in terms of protection. Not sure if it has evolved more since then.

 

[Will Zach]

There was one roo Aero Highwayman featured at TFL some time ago - breathtaking. That was the last piece of kanga hide Aero had and likely will ever have...

 

[Edward]

Yes, it is very likely to be cowhide, but I couldn't tell for sure from looking at the picture. According to Brian, the owner, textile didn't come close to leather in terms of protection. Not sure if it has evolved more since then.

There's been significant evolution in riding jeans in the last few years; one company (the name of which escapes me) now has developed a pair of single-layer kevlar/denim mixed jeans that can outperform leather in slide time, though obviously that gets pricey fast by comparison. (To be fair, not any moreso than fancy, heavy selvedge jeans, of course.) I'm hoping for the day they can do that same with tweed.... though the easy option currently, albeit not ideal for hotter days, is one of those pairs of armoured kevlar longjohns that can be worn under any trews. The trews will shred in an off, but not your skin...

There was one roo Aero Highwayman featured at TFL some time ago - breathtaking. That was the last piece of kanga hide Aero had and likely will ever have...

If I could, I'd love a Royale in Roo, but I can well understand why Aero take that approach. Ken doesn't like to have anything on the website unless or until they can be guaranteed sufficient, ongoing quantities, which makes huge business sense.

 

[Carlos840]

Roo is the only hide I'm aware off that can beat goat for abrasion resistance. It's not common, though, outside of professional racewear. Goat is very common in motorcycle gloves, for the obvious reason that it's a lot more flexible than a heavy hide for that application. A decent, hefty hide will probably do just as well for the average slide for a civilian motorcyclist, of course - not many of them have to consider the possibility of an off at 200mph...



Could be any one of a number of variables, down to breed of goat that's common, variation from place to place, variation in diet (c/f how you never see white dog poo now, but it was very common back up til the early eighties, when animal welfare laws changed and manufacturers couldn't get away with bulking it out with so much bonemeal...). Organic substances like animal skin can vary hugely even from one animal to the next. Where the goatskin comes from can matter. Goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world today. Much of the goatskin used now comes from India and Pakistan,which will have all sorts of variances from the very light goat used in the US back in the 40s for the USN jackets, or the much thicker stuff used in those Swedish jackets, both types back then being more locally sourced that would be the case today. There's a significant difference in weight between the Wested and Aero goat I've owned, so. The Wested is much lighter, ideal for a real Summer jacket. Weight of lamb, but much tougher. The Aero goat is one of my favourite hides for anything. If it can in the range of colours steer and horse do, It would likely be my all-out favourite.



Norshor - is that Mark 'Fishmoek' that used to post round here? I have (somewhere) possibly the first jacket of his to make it into the wild, before he set up in business. Lovely piece, though it's going to have to be sold eventually as I don't think I'll get small enough to wear it again. Yours looks nice. I love how the side straps are of a piece with the half belt, cute design touch. Is that of his own inclination, or is it a replica of a specific jacket? Also interested to see it's unlined; I'm considering an unlined jacklet for a Summer option. Does he have a website running currently?

His name is Mark Fisher, so i assume he could be Mark 'Fishmoek'.
The jacket is called a "tweedy cossack", it's a 30s jacket that was in his wife's familly, used to belong to her uncle or something like that.
Whoel story + pics there:

https://www.norshorleatherjackets.com/jackets/sztn8l7eq6saudnmslv1nemixxss80

I have not seen that jacket yet,but Mark was great to deal with.

 

[TheDonEffect]

Sorry, late to this party, but here's my answer. It's how you perceive quality and how hyped it is in your own head. The market dictates price, so clearly there's enough people hyped up enough to buy it, but doesn't necessarily mean it's overhyped. There's always a reason for this, and frankly it's usually not solely based on quality. For example, if Alexander Leathers reopened under that name, and made the best jackets ever, alot of people here would still poo poo them, while some will look at the article and buy it.

It's hard to perceive a niche brand like Himel as something people would label whore, like people do with say Louis Vuitton. But there are parallels in the comparison.

The jacket that OP posted isn't surprising, and this is not a criticism on Himel. At the end of the day, it's an artisanal, handmade, jacket done by a guy who's not running a sweat shop or using automation. It's not the same worker executing the same exact stitch all day every day, and then going through multiple checks along the way to ensure uniformity. No, it's, at least in theory, made start to finish, with customer inputs, by one artisan. Remember the old saying, always best to have someone else check your work.

I feel at the end of the day, the price sorta comes with a certain level of fanaticism. If you're a fan of the Himel, his story, the way he does things, you appreciate his videos and <gasp> he's one of 3 or whatever people in North America that can get Shinki, then it's going to be worth it. And alot of the early adopters were, and were the ones who put the brand on a pedestal. But then those of us coming late to the party, looking at it with an objective eye, the value gets lost.

 

[Brandrea33]

Very late in replying to this, and not much new to add to what’s already been said, however here is my two cents ... sorry for the long post.

Admittedly, I’m very new to all of this but I can say that I may have bought into the “hype” or whatever you want to call it. I wanted to buy “one good thing” as the slogan says. I researched, lurked on this forum, watched videos, and tried to arm myself with the as much information as possible before making a purchasing decision.

I landed on Himel for a variety of reasons that made sense to me. I really like his story, and find his videos interesting. Reviewers on YouTube and here on this forum also spoke very highly of the quality and mostly of the leather he uses. The leather he uses (at least the Shinki oil tan) is exquisite, although I freely admit I haven’t been exposed as many varieties as many of you have.

I also really like his unique design ethos, (although some of them aren’t my style). I waited patiently to make a decision. I originally reached out the John Chapman first, (no return phone call or email to my many inquires ... ). Then one day I saw a “safe” pattern on Himel’s web site ... the Imperial. Funnily enough, it’s a pattern borrowed from JC if I understand correctly). I knew I couldn’t get the jacket from JC but I figured I’d support Himel as they are local to me. A match made in heaven so to speak.

Anyway, is the jacket perfect? Probably not even to my rookie standards.

Do I love it? Yes, mostly. Is it worth the price? Now here’s the rub and this is where I struggle a bit. Maybe I expected perfect stitching and fit on my first go around. This is not the case, albeit, I do accept some of the responsibility for the fit issues, (even though most here commented that the jacket looks perfect, it doesn’t “feel perfect”).

So in a nutshell, for the price I paid the jury is out on whether it is a good value for money proposition. I’m not unhappy, just not over the moon as I thought I might be. Unrealistic expectations perhaps.

Side note ... being a long time watch collector, I also realize that these “hobbies” are sort of similar. Surround yourself with folks who dissect the minutiae of jackets and your bound to find faults.

Maybe I’m chasing leather jacket nirvana that doesn’t exist ... I’m not sure, but I’ve gone ahead and decided to give my next jacket a go, with a different maker. So the other day, I reached out to Greg Field and put a deposit down on a something of a new old pattern that he agreed to make for me.

The decision to use Greg is based on a similar process ... research done mostly here, from happy reviewers, etc. So we shall see if his creation can top the Imperial and if it does, I’ll let you all know

 

[El Marro]

So in a nutshell, for the price I paid the jury is out on whether it is a good value for money proposition. I’m not unhappy, just not over the moon as I thought I might be. Unrealistic expectations perhaps.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this passage. When I started reading here I had similar expectations and hopes for my first jacket (first five jackets to be honest). Seeing so many awesome jackets here made me think that I just needed to find the perfect maker for me, who would make me the perfect jacket, and then saunter off into the sunset mission accomplished!
In reality I have found that that one perfect jacket doesn’t exist for me and I am happier to know this. No when I purchase The jacket I have more realistic hopes and expectations for what it might mean to me.
I wish you luck with your order from Field Leathers and I think that was a good choice on your part. The knowledge you gained from your Himel experience will help you going forward.

 

[Brandrea33]

I think you hit the nail on the head with this passage. When I started reading here I had similar expectations and hopes for my first jacket (first five jackets to be honest). Seeing so many awesome jackets here made me think that I just needed to find the perfect maker for me, who would make me the perfect jacket, and then saunter off into the sunset mission accomplished!
In reality I have found that that one perfect jacket doesn’t exist for me and I am happier to know this. No when I purchase The jacket I have more realistic hopes and expectations for what it might mean to me.
I wish you luck with your order from Field Leathers and I think that was a good choice on your part. The knowledge you gained from your Himel experience will help you going forward.

Thank you, I’m truly going to enjoy the journey

 

[red devil]

Very late in replying to this, and not much new to add to what’s already been said, however here is my two cents ... sorry for the long post.

Admittedly, I’m very new to all of this but I can say that I may have bought into the “hype” or whatever you want to call it. I wanted to buy “one good thing” as the slogan says. I researched, lurked on this forum, watched videos, and tried to arm myself with the as much information as possible before making a purchasing decision.

I landed on Himel for a variety of reasons that made sense to me. I really like his story, and find his videos interesting. Reviewers on YouTube and here on this forum also spoke very highly of the quality and mostly of the leather he uses. The leather he uses (at least the Shinki oil tan) is exquisite, although I freely admit I haven’t been exposed as many varieties as many of you have.

I also really like his unique design ethos, (although some of them aren’t my style). I waited patiently to make a decision. I originally reached out the John Chapman first, (no return phone call or email to my many inquires ... ). Then one day I saw a “safe” pattern on Himel’s web site ... the Imperial. Funnily enough, it’s a pattern borrowed from JC if I understand correctly). I knew I couldn’t get the jacket from JC but I figured I’d support Himel as they are local to me. A match made in heaven so to speak.

Anyway, is the jacket perfect? Probably not even to my rookie standards.

Do I love it? Yes, mostly. Is it worth the price? Now here’s the rub and this is where I struggle a bit. Maybe I expected perfect stitching and fit on my first go around. This is not the case, albeit, I do accept some of the responsibility for the fit issues, (even though most here commented that the jacket looks perfect, it doesn’t “feel perfect”).

So in a nutshell, for the price I paid the jury is out on whether it is a good value for money proposition. I’m not unhappy, just not over the moon as I thought I might be. Unrealistic expectations perhaps.

Side note ... being a long time watch collector, I also realize that these “hobbies” are sort of similar. Surround yourself with folks who dissect the minutiae of jackets and your bound to find faults.

Maybe I’m chasing leather jacket nirvana that doesn’t exist ... I’m not sure, but I’ve gone ahead and decided to give my next jacket a go, with a different maker. So the other day, I reached out to Greg Field and put a deposit down on a something of a new old pattern that he agreed to make for me.

The decision to use Greg is based on a similar process ... research done mostly here, from happy reviewers, etc. So we shall see if his creation can top the Imperial and if it does, I’ll let you all know

No worries about long posts, it certainly is interesting to read about everyone's experiences, that's the whole point of this forum

In the interest of full disclosure, I do not own any Himel but have an order with Greg. I remember a few years ago when Himel was lavishly praised for everything but price... that was the point that had members disagreeing here. I was looking at the Himel jackets and hesitating whether to get one or not, I don't mind gambling on a maker, but in Himel's case it was a big one. Long story short, I got close to ordering one, but never went past the tipping point. There was always something cooling me off... Then I got to handle a few, and while they are nice overall, it did not live up to the image it had in the forum.

Luckily, I believe that the representation of the brands is overall more accurate now, I do have an order with Greg as I mentionned before, because, from the pictures, his construction is top tier. He had issues with his patterns, and as opposed to what happened with Himel and Diamond Dave, they were not glossed over. And the good news, is that he is constantly evolving, so I am hoping to address all pattern issues - if there are any left - with my mock-up and the help of previous owners here. In other words, going with Greg is a smaller gamble in tems of value and a safer bet in terms of expectations. I will definitely relay the whole picture once I get my jacket.

Also, right now, going with Himel is not as much of a gamble as it used to be, because he is represented more accurately then back then, so I would hope any prospective buyer knows what to expect, all the pros and cons. That being said, I believe there is more of an incentive to order from Himel if you are based in Canada.

 

[red devil]

I think you hit the nail on the head with this passage. When I started reading here I had similar expectations and hopes for my first jacket (first five jackets to be honest). Seeing so many awesome jackets here made me think that I just needed to find the perfect maker for me, who would make me the perfect jacket, and then saunter off into the sunset mission accomplished!
In reality I have found that that one perfect jacket doesn’t exist for me and I am happier to know this. No when I purchase The jacket I have more realistic hopes and expectations for what it might mean to me.
I wish you luck with your order from Field Leathers and I think that was a good choice on your part. The knowledge you gained from your Himel experience will help you going forward.

There is not only one grail but many

 

[handymike]

I was lucky enough to have my Imperial made by JC. There are a couple of things that are different from what I’d imagined, but after 5 years and many other jackets it is still my favorite.

 

[yellowfever]

Kangaroo has the best abrasion resistance to weight ratio in leathers, really makes for a nice racing suit.

BKS made to measure also offer thick cowhide as an option, wonder if the one that was in the crash was cowhide or kangaroo

https://www.bksleather.co.uk/news/police-biker-crash

yes the accepted abrasion resistance at the same thickness/weight from higher to lower is

kangaroo
Goat
Bovine (cow/steer)

kangaroo hide has no pores, hence its greater strength weight for weight. Goat and kangaroo are also considered more water resistant... but bovine hides can be thicker and the pieces are bigger (so fewer seams) and it’s far cheaper/more readily available/consistent.

Kangaroo is very expensive as they are sought after hides especially by high end football (soccer) boot makers (the biggest use by far I think).The hides are small, often have flaws picked up from the kangaroos rough living life and they are awkwardly shaped for use in jackets, jeans and one piece leathers, so lots of waste and a lot of skill in construction needed (no point having super abrasion resistant leather if you’ve got vulnerable seams that can burst open in a crash).

Given all this, getting consistent quality hides that pass safety standards for motorbike use in sufficient quantities when you are a (comparatively) small not so important niche buyer as far as the tanneries are concerned is not easy. Kangaroo hides get used on some, but by no means all, professional race suits. Some riders like the lighter weight and hence easier to move in nature of kangaroo leathers. But modern race suit construction has many stretch Kevlar (and other man made fibre) panels in less vulnerable areas, and stretch leather panels too, so you can have nice thick cow leather where you need it giving as good or better protection than kangaroo hide and still have a suit that’s not too heavy and that you can move in and wear comfortably in the bike...

Not sure if it’s true, but I’ve also heard (i can’t recall where now - maybe BKS website?) that kangaroo hides are typically only good for one crash, whereas thicker cowhide suits can often survive multiple crashes and still be protective... certainly plenty of amateur club racers (who tend to crash a lot) would get many a crash out of their super thick cowhide Crowtree leathers (they couldn’t usually afford BKS and anyway Crowtree had a deserved cult following given the number of times they got tested in crashes and saved riders from injury)...

So kangaroo hide remains pretty niche in bike leathers, it’s most commonly seen in higher end motorbike gloves (for the full glove in rare cases, or more typically just the palm) where the thinner leather allows for greater feel and flexibility without compromising safety. Goat is used as a cheaper option for the same reason. Stingray can also be used as another exotic alternative.

The police crash suit will be cow. No way taxpayers, having paid for a super expensive made to measure CE and Cambridge standard certified protective BKS two piece suit for police riders (due to their legal duty of care to provide suitable protective work clothing) are going to fork over the huge upcharge to make it out of kangaroo...

Damn fine leathers, if you fall off this is what you want to be wearing...

 

[Brandrea33]

No worries about long posts, it certainly is interesting to read about everyone's experiences, that's the whole point of this forum

In the interest of full disclosure, I do not own any Himel but have an order with Greg. I remember a few years ago when Himel was lavishly praised for everything but price... that was the point that had members disagreeing here. I was looking at the Himel jackets and hesitating whether to get one or not, I don't mind gambling on a maker, but in Himel's case it was a big one. Long story short, I got close to ordering one, but never went past the tipping point. There was always something cooling me off... Then I got to handle a few, and while they are nice overall, it did not live up to the image it had in the forum.

Luckily, I believe that the representation of the brands is overall more accurate now, I do have an order with Greg as I mentionned before, because, from the pictures, his construction is top tier. He had issues with his patterns, and as opposed to what happened with Himel and Diamond Dave, they were not glossed over. And the good news, is that he is constantly evolving, so I am hoping to address all pattern issues - if there are any left - with my mock-up and the help of previous owners here. In other words, going with Greg is a smaller gamble in tems of value and a safer bet in terms of expectations. I will definitely relay the whole picture once I get my jacket.

Also, right now, going with Himel is not as much of a gamble as it used to be, because he is represented more accurately then back then, so I would hope any prospective buyer knows what to expect, all the pros and cons. That being said, I believe there is more of an incentive to order from Himel if you are based in Canada.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I agree the mock up jacket has me less worried about any fit issues (although I realize it’s not fool proof), and I know who to blame if it doesn’t “feel” like I hope it should.

I too appreciate working with someone who is actually making the jacket and with Greg, I know that will be the case. That’s not meant to be critical of Himel, but it did factor into my decision to use Field Leathers. Will he make a better jacket? We shall see, but from all indications the craftsmanship is superior to many brands out there who have been around a lot longer.

I’m excited to see what you have coming down the pipe from Greg.

 

[Marc mndt]

I do have an order with Greg as I mentionned before, because, from the pictures, his construction is top tier. He had issues with his patterns, and as opposed to what happened with Himel and Diamond Dave, they were not glossed over. And the good news, is that he is constantly evolving, so I am hoping to address all pattern issues

Sneak peek. Updated patterns in the making.

 

[Monitor]

So in a nutshell, for the price I paid the jury is out on whether it is a good value for money proposition. I’m not unhappy, just not over the moon as I thought I might be. Unrealistic expectations perhaps.

For that kind of money, you ought to be. @dudewuttheheck is with his Freewheelers jackets, having little to no complaints whatsoever and his expectations bar is set pretty darn high. There are brands out there that will deliver you a... Well, something you might consider close to perfect. Of course, it all depends what you're after but I've read a lot of similar testimonies on Himel Bros. from members here who've had jackets by just about every top tier maker under the sun and all of these people eventually settled for a maker that indeed does seem make them over the moon with what they bought, be it Freewheelers, Thedi or Lost Worlds.
So I'd say it's not unrealistic to expect anything less for $2500+, how much a new Himel costs. I don't think any other maker charges more for their jackets right now, not even Japanese ones with all the import taxes and all that included.