Ever think some jackets are overhyped

[Rgcards]

Hi, original poster here.
First, I posted originally not to call out a maker or a group of makers, but to generate a discussion about how the internet and forums shape our views about products, and there has been some great discussion on that ;thanks to all. In regards to Himel, I would like to thank them for participating. As superfluous ponted out on his companion thread, no individual is always going to reach their highest standard on every attempt. Himel has mad most of their customers happy, and again thay offer certain services ,in regards to bespoke fitting, that are not available from certain other makers. Mr Himel points out, I think very reasonably, that certain aspects of reproducibility are more difficult to achieve given one off type work than for standard sizes and runs. The Aero contributor points out that certain repairs are more difficult given different construction techniques, and that has been confirmed apparently , by Dena returning a jacket without a repair, due to its being to difficult to disassemble. My take on this is that certain trade offs are inevitable. What constitutes a priority for some may be trivial to others. Obviously there are certain standards which should be upheld, but within these limits, each maker may have diffirent tolerances. Whether paying more should result in higher tolerances is an open qusetion, but I think mos would feel that it probably should, unless there is some overwhelming positive aspect to the experience that completely dominates the decision(i.e the only maker willing to make a size 62 leathertogs A).

Oh ,and in regards to having my jacket remade, I think that would be a waste of a nice jacket. But if you want to give me a discount on a new one!!!

 

[handymike]

Damn... I really wanted to see Dave’s reply to Holly’s post since I know their approaches are completely different.

 

[El Marro]

We also have Johnson Leathers, but they never had any issue. And same for Dave Sheeley. I am missing some others I think.

Johnson has slipped up from time to time, they are only human after all. They have always been good about working to fix the problem though.

 

[handymike]

I appreciate the HBL response, but is their service really “bespoke”? Does HBL create unique designs for their customers, or is it more akin to a made-to-measure service like Aero and others?
I feel that a true one-off would warrant a higher price tag.

 

[cloudylemonade]

This is really interesting information. So is it fair to say that jackets built the “Japanese way” aren’t going to stand up as well over time as compared to say an aero jacket that uses different techniques?

I would say that the jackets made with this technique are more prone to tearing at the seams under heavy wear due to the skiving and high stitch count.

From our first hand experience the method used to glue the front edges and the fold at the zipper makes zipper replacement extremely difficult at best and impossible at worst. The use of leather glue (not fabric glue) will make any reline a lot harder to execute as well.

For these reasons, Aero jackets should outlast their Japanese equivalents by decades.

 

[handymike]

Holly, why does Aero use the type of needle you do (the big hole-maker one)? Is there some benefit?

 

[navetsea]

Damn... I really wanted to see Dave’s reply to Holly’s post since I know their approaches are completely different.

let's wait probably took 3 days to format his model of reply

 

[Carlos840]

I disagree. In my opinion, Carlos was clearly complaining about his jacket.

I think David and Parker should be commended for coming here to address the forum. My take away from David’s response is that if anyone has serious concerns with a jacket they own by him, they should contact him directly. Maybe we read his reply differently.

I also think David and Parker have replied in a genuine way to this thread and the offer to replace Carlo’s jacket is going above and beyond.

I was not complaining about my jacket, i was just showing what my Himel looked like after hearing a bunch of people go on and on about the perfection you should expect from a Himel... I was just pointing out that not all Himel are perfect, IMO far from it.

 

[red devil]

Johnson has slipped up from time to time, they are only human after all. They have always been good about working to fix the problem though.

They focus on the leather jackets and don't make any wild claims

 

[Hide'n'seek]

Holly, why does Aero use the type of needle you do (the big hole-maker one)? Is there some benefit?

Due to the fact that we do not skive our seams and that Horweens Chromexel is still one of our most popular leathers we need to use a slightly larger needle to deal with the thickness of some of our seams which at ceratin points of the jacket can be up 10 layers thick at certain points. A smaller needle whilst giving a more descreet hole would break under the strain.

As has been mentioned above our jackets have been built to be sustainable, our jackets are built to last and to be kept alive. Like a good pair of welted sole shoes that can be resoled, our jackets are constructed in a way that they can be relined, have hardwear replacements etc..... Every week we have 20 to 30 years old jackets going through the factory having linings replaced, new hardwear etc fitted givning them a new lease of life. If we skived , glued and used tiny stitches these jackets would reach a point where there can't be serviced sucessfully
Following on with the sustainability what other jacket makers will let you trade in a battered old 30 year old jacket against a new one?

 

[Monitor]

I would say that the jackets made with this technique are more prone to tearing at the seams under heavy wear due to the skiving and high stitch count.

I've no skin in the game but I have heard the exact same thing from two leather repair & alteration shop owners - And I'd imagine they have seen a lot more ripped seams than any jacket maker would, as those are the guys people bring their broken leathers to.

Anyway, just recently (and I may have already posted about it), I brought in a very heavy Chevignon leather jacket for a zipper replacement and the old guy working there immediately said he will not follow the original stitch row as that would make the leather rip due to too many needle holes. He used a postage stamp analogy. There was no doubt in my mind that he'd seen that happen one to many times.

Vintage Chevignon jackets aren't glued at the seams, either.

 

[Superfluous]

The strong point of Himel jackets is certainly not construction, but fit and pattern as it appears to be the current consensus from owners.

Completely disagree. This thread demonstrates that Himel, as with ALL other manufacturers, is capable of occasionally allowing a substandard jacket out the door. That said, it appears that the overwhelming majority of Himel jackets are well constructed. I have purchased six Himel jackets and every one was well constructed. Two or three errant jackets out of hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- does not demonstrate that Himel jackets are poorly constructed. IMHO, your extrapolation is not well founded.

@Monitor Your criticism of Himel's willingness to make @Carlos840 a new jacket is, IMHO, not well-taken. While this thread may transcend @Carlos840's particular jacket -- although his jacket somehow transplanted the OP's jacket as the focal example -- Himel's willingness to make @Carlos840 a new jacket notwithstanding the passage of two years, and notwithstanding @Carlos840 's intervening public comments, is commendable. Himel acknowledges that @Carlos840 should never have been delivered and he is owning his error -- an error that was never brought to his attention by the purchaser. Himel states that it is his long-established policy to replace errant jackets which, according to Himel, are few and far between. Himel is merely applying his established policy to @Carlos840 under circumstances where other manufacturers might refuse. IMHO, that is honorable.

I would say that the jackets made with this technique are more prone to tearing at the seams under heavy wear due to the skiving and high stitch count.

Perhaps theoretically "more prone," but I am not aware of any real world empirical data suggesting that the theoretical risk has palpable real world consequences (a couple of examples of torn seams out of literally thousands and thousands of jackets employing these methods does not translate to a material risk). Moreover, while I understand the purported trade-off, I personally am willing to accept the theoretical risk in exchange for a better looking jacket.

From our first hand experience the method used to glue the front edges and the fold at the zipper makes zipper replacement extremely difficult at best and impossible at worst.

Perhaps "more difficult," but certainly not "impossible." I personally have had a zipper replaced on a jacket employing these methods with no problem whatsoever.

For these reasons, Aero jackets should outlast their Japanese equivalents by decades.

"Should" being the operative word. Again, this is theoretical. I am not aware of any empirical data demonstrating that "Japanese equivalents" do not last a lifetime . . . and thats plenty long for me. I don't care if my jackets survive for my great great great grandchildren. I would rather have a better looking jacket that lasts my lifetime.

 

[ton312]

As an aside, why is the leather adjacent to Aero front zippers universally wavy and terrible looking? I cringe every time I look at an Aero front zipper.

Waves? Bruuuh...you might be spending too much time at the beach?

 

[Superfluous]

@ton312 - You're right -- the leather adjacent to your zippers is not wavy -- I have definitely seen wavy leather on other jackets but not yours -- my statement was overbroad and I apologize. I will remove it from my post.

 

[Brandrea33]

I was not complaining about my jacket, i was just showing what my Himel looked like after hearing a bunch of people go on and on about the perfection you should expect from a Himel... I was just pointing out that not all Himel are perfect, IMO far from it.

Well regardless, the maker has offered to replace it for you and I’d say that’s customer service to perfection.

I suppose the proverbial ball is in your court. Sounds like Mr. Himel wants to make it right, and for that no one here can fault him for that.

 

[Superfluous]

Well regardless, the maker has offered to replace it for you and I’d say that’s customer service to perfection. I suppose the proverbial ball is in your court. Sounds like Mr. Himel wants to make it right, and for that no one here can fault him for that.

^ This!

 

[cloudylemonade]

@ton312 - You're right -- the leather adjacent to your zippers is not wavy -- I have definitely seen wavy leather on other jackets but not yours -- my statement was overbroad and I apologize. I will remove it from my post.

I was just trying to respond to this, but I see the photos speak louder than words. Was going to say this must be the fact that we don't glue them flat

But, to add more we overlap the zipper for two reasons, first to keep the wind out and keep the wearer warm, and secondly zip teeth aren't all that attractive!

To answer your point on data re: damaged leather, I asked my father who said '50 years dealing in vintage leather gave me all the data I need.'

 

[Carlos840]

Well regardless, the maker has offered to replace it for you and I’d say that’s customer service to perfection.

I suppose the proverbial ball is in your court. Sounds like Mr. Himel wants to make it right, and for that no one here can fault him for that.

It depends under which conditions.
I am not ready to spend any money on having that jacket remade, shipping + import tax will be just under $1000.
If Mr. Himel is ready to pay for shipping both way and pay for import taxes i am happy to put the jacket in a box, print a label and send it.
If he wants me to pay for shipping and customs i would rather keep this one and put it on my wall.
IMO the ball is in his court.

 

[dwilson]

Waves? Bruuuh...you might be spending too much time at the beach?
View attachment 312559 View attachment 312561 View attachment 312562 View attachment 312563

Man that crosszip is beautiful

 

[Marc mndt]

Man that crosszip is beautiful

You're rubbing it in