European vs. American Automotive Histories

[Smithy]

I might be wandering slightly off topic here but BT touched on it earlier with the idea that there is a similar comparison between NZ and Australia here.

Although Aussie Fords and Holdens have been popular since the start in NZ, their inception in Oz was due to the very long distances and straight roads, hence their similarity to American motorcars. NZ being very hilly, Aussie rear-wheel drive V8s were very popular for doing the typical Kiwi pastime of towing the boat round the country. However a sign of changing times is that Ford Australia are looking to axe the Falcon V8, which is an iconic symbol of Australia-ana. It will be the end of an era.

I'm a fan of 8s, many mates and cousins back home have had Aussie muscle cars, but the truth of the matter is that with technological advances and fuel concerns, smaller capacity engines are the way that things are going. Also longevity is less of an issue now with higher revving engines due to advancements in alloys and metals. Although I wouldn't say they could last as long as traditional big displacement blocks.

Performance-wise, there's something wonderful about being in a V8 or V12 engined motorcar and the surge of power and torque. It's sublime. I've been lucky enough to have driven and been driven in a lot of high performance cars and still the one which was the fastest, and I mean, terrifyingly, awesomely stupidly fast, was a tuned Lancer Evo VII - way quicker than a Lotus, Ferrari, Porsche, and all those traditionally "fast cars". That really opened my eyes to what was capable with modern automotive engineering. Would I buy one, no bloody way, it really scared me. I'll stick to a nice 50s or 60s British sports car thank you

 

[Smithy]

What on earth happened to BT's post here??!!

He made some very pertinent and well argued points here in response to a post that could be construed as being rather unbalanced in places.

 

[BellyTank]

No fear, Dear...

I was editing it in two sessions with my wireless intermittent connection
and lost half of it. Must have it saved somewhere...
Transmission will be resumed shortly- back soon and sensible after these difficulties are dealt with.

B
T

 

[Smithy]

No worries BT, I was worried it had been pulled which seemed a bit odd.

Thought you argued the point rather well and added some balanced different perspectives to something which seemed to be becoming a smidge jingoistic.

Hope you're enjoying all those köttbullar.

 

[Mr. 'H']

The importance of good roads in all of this can't be over emphasized.

That seems to be a very important point.

Ironically, now that some excellent roads are indeed available in this country as well as the UK and other European countries, it is funny that a V8 could be a good fit for journeys on these roads.

I suppose for a long time the V8 could be argued as the best type of engine if every country had roads like in the US. Now that arguement is weakened due to technilogical advances in the performance of smaller engines and the feul savings.

 

[benstephens]

I think the points above, such as Smithy made are very true. In the end, the parting of technology that was witnessed in the early days of motoring has been in a large part down to the ergonomics of the design criteria.

Europe with its ancient roads did not need large comfatable highway cruisers, where as large countries such as America and Australia, chose the large interstate cruisers that would eat miles of motorway with minimum fuss.

BT, if possible, it would be good to see your post return, as it added some balance to the topic.

Kindest regards

Ben

 

[Twitch]

Ben- I don't know if the British government fretted about people "moving about unrestricted" but they did in the US. When the interstate hiway act was announced that would build a network of highways across the nation some politicians actually reasoned that it was a bad thing because the people could travel all over at any time.

I suppose they thought the old Nazi "Papers, please!" should have played out over here too.

 

[David Conwill]

Hmm, I’ve read all this, and now all I can think about is how cool an Austin 7 roadster would be with a V8/60...

-Dave

 

[dhermann1]

Hmmmm

I've also learned a lot reading this thread. Just curious: All you automotively hip guys out there. How would you rate the big straight 8's that Buick produced for so many years? I'm a 41 Buick nut, my buddy Mr H, as many of you probably know, has one. It's a gorgeous 41 Special, with the smaller 248 cubic inch engine.

 

[David Conwill]

I don't have any firsthand experience with the Buick straight eight, but as usual, I'm happy to pass on some hearsay.

Most of what I've heard about the Dynaflash 8 has been positive: Buick's first Century model ran one, factory "compound carburetion" was available prewar 2x1 carbs, iirc), famous hot rodder Ak Miller had one in his 1940s-era lakes racing '32 Chevy roadster, and even still guys on the HAMB view it as a hop up-worthy powerplant (see HAMBster "Scotch" and his '50 Buick project).

Certainly the Buick is lighter than the equally famous Packard, packs an overhead valve head, which most eights of its era can't boast, and its bottom end is stouter than the Pontiac I8, which is the only staight eight of comparable availability.

It's been overshadowed by the later Fireball V8 (aka "Nailhead"), but I think it's certainly a worthy engine from the Golden Era.

-Dave

 

[Chainsaw]

Staright Eights or sixes, by their design are bullet proof. they go forever, and are good for towing/hauling when mated with an appropriate transmission. The general design was used in Ford Pick-ups as well as AMC jeeps.

For performance, the best bang for your buck, is a late eighties early ninties Mustang (my freinds cousin wants to import one to England). For 5-10 G's you can take out Corvettes, Ferrais, ANYTHING Asian, except for possibly German inspired Subarus, in rainy weather.

In Canada/America 90% of cars sold are Automatic. In Europe, it is 90% standard. We like to cruise they like to Ralley.

 

[Chasseur]

Learned a great deal in this thread, thanks guys!:eusa_clap

 

[David Conwill]

Staright Eights or sixes, by their design are bullet proof.

I think that might be a slight overstatement. I think the general rule with engines is that one wants one more bearing than the number of cylinders if one is concerned with bottom end durability: 5-bearing I4 (i.e. Dodge Bros); 7-bearing I6 (i.e. Ford 200); and 9-bearing I8 (i.e. big Packard).

The Pontiac I8, in particular, was a little light on main bearings, so I’m told, so they don’t hold up as well as a similar Buick.

“The top end makes it fast, the bottom end makes it last.”

-Dave

 

[Chainsaw]

Well my friend, I'm sure if I had a shop manual here I could argue with you. I don't usually get that technical though.

 

[Flivver]

I've also learned a lot reading this thread. Just curious: All you automotively hip guys out there. How would you rate the big straight 8's that Buick produced for so many years? I'm a 41 Buick nut, my buddy Mr H, as many of you probably know, has one. It's a gorgeous 41 Special, with the smaller 248 cubic inch engine.

There were two generations of Buick Straight Eights...the first generation made from 1931-1935 and the second generation made from 1936-1953.

The first generation Buick Eights were somewhat compromised designs because they had to fit in the same space as the inline sixes they replaced.

But the second generation of Buick Straight Eights were outstanding engines...and very durable. They initially came in two displacements...248 CID and 320 CID. A 263 CID version debuted in 1950. By 1952, the 320 CID engine sported a four barrel carburetor and 170 HP.

Interestingly, the narrow "nailhead" V8 that Buick introduced in 1953 had to be narrow to fit in the old 1950-53 body that was set up to use the long narrow straight eight. Shades of 1931!

While straight eights were ultra smooth, they tended to be heavy and hard to package in the vehicle. They also suffered fuel distribution problems on the outer cylinders due to a centrally mounted carburetor on a long intake manifold. Once Cadillac had introduced the 90 degree crankshaft V8 in 1924, the V8 really was a superior configuration.

 

[Thunderbolt]

We like to cruise they like to Ralley.

I'd like to ralley myself, but the damned road keeps going straight!

 

[Tango Yankee]

Commenting upon the original thrust of this thread, i.e. what may have contributed to the differences between American and European automotive culture:

It's been observed here that fuel taxes and the fact that cars were used locally and trains for distance were contributing factors in keeping cars small in Europe and the UK. I'd agree with those suggestions. But there is one more factor that I think applied as well and that is the age of most villages, towns, and cities in Europe. Most of them were originally laid out before cars even existed, which means very narrow streets as when the buildings were built the streets were used for pedestrian, cart or wagon, or horseback use. Cars needed to be able to fit within these limitatons. Even in cities where bombing during WWII resulted in extensive rebuilding the streets were widened but not with the cars of today and the sheer numbers of those cars in mind. In many places cars parked on the street are parked half on the sidewalk because to park fully on the street would block traffic.

Even in the relatively new part of the village of Sawtry in the UK where I lived (built in the '80s) the streets were narrow enough that one night a firetruck couldn't get through due to cars parked half on the sidewalks on either side. Cars could get through but anything bigger couldn't. Even my garage was too small for the late '80s UK Ford I drove.

Just my observations on the subject...

Cheers,
Tom

Just my own observations on the subject.

 

[StraightEight]

I've also learned a lot reading this thread. Just curious: All you automotively hip guys out there. How would you rate the big straight 8's that Buick produced for so many years? I'm a 41 Buick nut, my buddy Mr H, as many of you probably know, has one. It's a gorgeous 41 Special, with the smaller 248 cubic inch engine.

Having completely rebuilt my '38 248 and done a fair amount of work on the '48 248, I definitely wouldn't call them bulletproof, but I'd say that for the day (obviously much more so in 1937 than in 1953) it was a reasonably sophisticated and robust design though it suffered the same inherent issues as most engines of the era, namely poor thermodynamic efficiency. i.e.: much more of the fuel's heat energy was wasted warming the giant castings and the tailpipe than in the V-8 engines that replaced it.

They didn't know what they didn't know, or they wouldn't have used domed pistons and a circular flow head. Straight-eights have other issues related to their architecture, namely 1st order vibrations and cooling problems at the back of the engine. Water must flow all the way back, then all the way forward. Plus, the engine speed--and thus horsepower--is limited by the prolonged length of the rotating masses. Cracked crankshafts are somewhat common as people have tried to run the cars closer to modern highway speeds. In the '48, the gearing is such that 55 mph equals 3500 rpm, pretty much the engine's upper limit. Fuel distribution in the manifold is uneven and exhaust manifolds were prone to leaks and cracks. The whole intake-exhaust design stacks a huge amount of mass on relatively small attachment points so its not hard to see why they failed.

Also, and this may have been common in other engines of the day, but the Buick eight seemed to retain a lot of its casting core sand in assembly. The service manual has a procedure for pulling the freeze plugs and digging it out every 8,000 miles or so. Much of it ends up in the radiator where it contributes to the decline of the cooling system and the eventual head warp and gasket failure that all straight-eights seem to suffer at some point in their lives. I don't have much experience with other engines of the period to know if this was a Buick issue or industry-wide at the time. I do know that when I drained the block a month ago I got about an inch of Michigan lakeshore sand in the bucket that has been in the block since 1948...

 

[Edward]

Something else that bears mentioning:

The size of the countries in Europe; England is a tiny country, relatively speaking. No real need for a roomy, comfortable car if all you ever do with it is ride across town. Europeans have generally used trains, etc for long range trips. Which would you rather take on a road trip from Ohio to the Grand Canyon, a Buick Roadmaster or an Austin?

Depends on the Austin, really.... I've never driven one of those big Yankee cars, but the sheer size of them terrifies me.... forget the Austin, a Routemaster would be a closer comparison!! Still, when you need to turn a corner as rarely as seems the case in the US... lol

Hmm, I’ve read all this, and now all I can think about is how cool an Austin 7 roadster would be with a V8/60...

-Dave

lol I have experience of a 36 7 two seater..... that would be a frightening thing. Reminds me of the guy who dropped a Jag V12 into a Robin Reliant. They asked if the little three wheeler got unstable at speed; he claimed that weight in the nose kept it down... lol

Me, I've never fancied the V8.... I prefer the notion of something smaller, cheaper to feed, and more efficient. Current fancy is a 50s 100E Ford with a few subtle mods, ideally a period, Hot/Rat Rod approach rather than the common V8 or 70s Pinto conversion, but maybe a modern five speed box. Can't see me running a car anytime soon, though - no need, and probably couldn't afford it anyhow.

 

[Chrome]

Great topic!

As a fellow Buickist I decided to add some of my thoughts. I have '49 Roadmaster and as a bulletproof engine my observation is quite similar. My engine suffered bearing breakdown in 2004 and it the engine was never rebuilt. So engine pulled the hulk 55 years with oilchanges and plugs etc only. Quite good I guess longevity is due inefficient dynaflow automatic transmission what didn't put all the starin to engine.

But to the topic, Finland without any own car production decided that people knows best (like in US) if seen thru car popularity. If I remember correctly, I can safely say that in top ten list of makes was six American manufacturers. This was prior ww2. After it Soviets knew better and only east block car was available for purchase until '62 when import rules relaxed. lol

Funny that in the thirties there werent any real hi-ways and in twenties horse carriages was counted top users when roads were built so these roads werent wide or straight or even taken care in winter.