ELMC's new line …

[Ishmael]

A lot of generalizations on here about "the Japanese".

 

[Justhandguns]

A lot of generalizations on here about "the Japanese".

Well, sure that is 'in general', but that is sure not cirtising the Japanese culture. There are so many things that no many other countries can achieve what the Japanese do as a nation. And as an outsider/foreign, I think Japan should carry on with their traditional working ethics, which seems to be loosing its feet in the modern day Japan since the import of US management style. Some of my Japanese friends told me that it is because the companies need to survive, but somehow it is also the downfall of some of the giant companies.

 

[Big J]

A lot of generalizations on here about "the Japanese".

Didn't post anything I can't give you a book reference for, but I don't think anyone's that interested.
Incidentally, I did say 'it seems', and 'I think', before making two statements, which hardly qualifies as 'a lot of generalizations' now, does it? Rather, I clearly gave my own opinion on a subject. If I can't speak in generalizations (about any nationality) I'm going to have to type 'in my opinion, most (insert nationality here) do (insert action here) most of the time', which I am sure you will agree is just as laborious to read, as it is for me to type.

I'm not looking to pick a fight, so I'll leave you to it, and have a cup of coffee with my (Japanese) family.

 

[havocpaul]

Not 'generalizations'...just facts, 35 years of collecting/buying/selling vintage clothing I know and have seen what the Japanese market and their styles and preferences are, been pretty consistent throughout and that is particularly Americana IMO.

 

[Monitor]

Yeah, that's the part that I don't get, why obsessing over some biker stuff from the 50's, man, enough so to warrant spending thousands and thousands of dollars so much only to dress up and play pretend - possibly more, seeing how all that stuff seems to cost twice as much in Japan? I mistakenly called it a trend earlier, but it can't be something as simple as that since it's been going on for ages and considering that all the major players opened up subsidiaries there, selling Japan exclusive stuff, it doesn't look like it's gonna fade away any time soon. The fact that Aero, Vanson, LW, Schott, GW, etc. etc. pretty much rely on the Japanese market speaks for itself. Then there's Real McCoy... These ain't just a bunch of hipsters we're talking about, but rather, someone's gotta be buying enough of these $3000 jackets and boots to keep 'em in business. It's just strange... Kind of like when the 'western' world began obsessing over anime and consequently everything Japanese - or at least what was perceived as being Japanese to the rest of the world.
Truth be told, I would trade a japanese sword for a RMC jacket in an instant, if I had one...

What's the biker/motorcycle scene in Japan like? Perhaps there lies an explanation.

 

[Big J]

Yeah, that's the part that I don't get, why obsessing over some biker stuff from the 50's, man, enough so to warrant spending thousands and thousands of dollars so much only to dress up and play pretend - possibly more, seeing how all that stuff seems to cost twice as much in Japan? I mistakenly called it a trend earlier, but it can't be something as simple as that since it's been going on for ages and considering that all the major players opened up subsidiaries there, selling Japan exclusive stuff, it doesn't look like it's gonna fade away any time soon. The fact that Aero, Vanson, LW, Schott, GW, etc. etc. pretty much rely on the Japanese market speaks for itself. Then there's Real McCoy... These ain't just a bunch of hipsters we're talking about, but rather, someone's gotta be buying enough of these $3000 jackets and boots to keep 'em in business. It's just strange... Kind of like when the 'western' world began obsessing over anime and consequently everything Japanese - or at least what was perceived as being Japanese to the rest of the world.
Truth be told, I would trade a japanese sword for a RMC jacket in an instant, if I had one...

What's the biker/motorcycle scene in Japan like? Perhaps there lies an explanation.

All pretty fair comments.

The biker scene kind of surprised me in the beginning- I expected to see a lot of sports bikes made by the big four Japanese companies, but the truth is that they went out with the 80's, Japanese sports bikes biggest markets are the US and the EU.
Most fashion conscious Japanese (and this will shock you) bikers ride scooters/mopeds. There is a huge aftermarket mods scene, and they can be ridden with the fashion of the day never being exposed to 'greasy bike parts'- everything is hidden under plastic fairings.
You see some Harley clone cruisers, but more often, real Harley's ridden by 40+ 'Hell's Salarymen'. Harleys cost about twice as much here as they do in the US. Harley riders generally dress like over the top Hells Angels- Perfecto clones, bandanas, that sort of thing.

There is a type of indigenous teenage/early 20's Japanese biker, usually found as part of a gang. They generally take style cues from kamikaze uniforms, ride low capacity Japanese 'muscle bikes' (what a contradiction), with over loud exhausts, at 2a.m. through residential areas. They have a reputation for violence, and are often touted as the teenage recruiting pool for the yakuza, but TBH, over the last 15 years they seem to have become a little old hat, and less popular- Japanese kids today can afford old Nissan Skylines and such, and prefer to go 'drifting' in the mountains, or in the rust belt at night.

 

[Superfluous]

Then there's Real McCoy... These ain't just a bunch of hipsters we're talking about, but rather, someone's gotta be buying enough of these $3000 jackets and boots to keep 'em in business.

Not sure where you get the $3,000 figure. The vast majority of RMC’s jackets cost less than $2,000 if purchased from RMC. For example, RMC’s J-100 is approximately $1,390 (http://www.therealmccoys.nagoya/?pid=1291352 ), and RMC’s A-2 is approximately $1,570 ( http://www.therealmccoys.nagoya/?pid=1321424 ). Not remotely close to $3,000.

possibly more, seeing how all that stuff seems to cost twice as much in Japan?

Not sure why you conclude that the “stuff seems to cost twice as much in Japan.” RMC’s J-100 costs less than GW’s Californian Racer and Himel’s Kensington, and about the same as the Aero Café Racer made with the Italian HH. Likewise, RMC’s A2 is priced about the same as GW’s A2, and only a tick more than Eastman’s A2.

Yeah, that's the part that I don't get, why obsessing over some biker stuff from the 50's, man, enough so to warrant spending thousands and thousands of dollars so much only to dress up and play pretend

Isn't that what Americans and Europeans do as well? What percentage of people purchasing moto jackets in the US/Europe actually ride a motorcycle, and purchase the jacket for that purpose?

What's the biker/motorcycle scene in Japan like? Perhaps there lies an explanation.

I am told that Japan has a meaningful biker scene: http://www.customcycle-moon.com/en/ , http://www.mooneyes.co.jp/en/

 

[Monitor]

All pretty fair comments.

The biker scene kind of surprised me in the beginning- I expected to see a lot of sports bikes made by the big four Japanese companies, but the truth is that they went out with the 80's, Japanese sports bikes biggest markets are the US and the EU.
Most fashion conscious Japanese (and this will shock you) bikers ride scooters/mopeds. There is a huge aftermarket mods scene, and they can be ridden with the fashion of the day never being exposed to 'greasy bike parts'- everything is hidden under plastic fairings.
You see some Harley clone cruisers, but more often, real Harley's ridden by 40+ 'Hell's Salarymen'. Harleys cost about twice as much here as they do in the US. Harley riders generally dress like over the top Hells Angels- Perfecto clones, bandanas, that sort of thing.

There is a type of indigenous teenage/early 20's Japanese biker, usually found as part of a gang. They generally take style cues from kamikaze uniforms, ride low capacity Japanese 'muscle bikes' (what a contradiction), with over loud exhausts, at 2a.m. through residential areas. They have a reputation for violence, and are often touted as the teenage recruiting pool for the yakuza, but TBH, over the last 15 years they seem to have become a little old hat, and less popular- Japanese kids today can afford old Nissan Skylines and such, and prefer to go 'drifting' in the mountains, or in the rust belt at night.

Interesting.

That's... somewhat how I envisioned things to be in Japan, streets flooding with scooters and mopeds - not the kind of Chinese/Thailand style, of course, but I imagine it's still a pretty practical mean of transportation over there. Though that's mostly because for a moment there I completely that the big four are of course Japanese companies and didn't take into consideration that naturally Japan should be swimming in all kinds of motorcycles. Which is why I find what you've said even more strange. Japan's made some of the finest cruisers.
Lol @ Hell's Salarymen. Also something I never imagined took hold in Japan. Are there any official 'chapters' or whatcha call it, of those guys there, or just folk being silly?

BTW; just to clarify so none of this would come across the wrong way, I've nothing against people wearing what they like and it's really cool seeing those guys wearing the romanticized 50's biker gear, just that I'm genuinely interested as to how this Americana thing had become so popular in Japan, a country where you'd least expect it, considering the past and all... I mean, try typing 'Buco j-24' into Google image search, 90% of hits are from Japanese websites - heck, first two are Japanese dudes wearing the jackets.

 

[Monitor]

Not sure why you conclude that the “stuff seems to cost twice as much in Japan.” RMC’s J-100 costs less than GW’s Californian Racer and Himel’s Kensington, and about the same as the Aero Café Racer made with the Italian HH. Likewise, RMC’s A2 is priced about the same as GW’s A2, and only a tick more than Eastman’s A2.

I've exaggerated a bit but looking at the... what's it called, Rakuten site, there are pieces being moved there for 'round $3000 or more. But whether it's $2000 or $3000 don't matter, my point is, even at $1500 it's hell of a lot of money for a leather jacket - fashion crap aside - and more than what any US/UK company's asking for it. Obviously, there's got to be demand for this sort of thing exists that's what I'd like to know more about. Legendary is asking for $800 for their Buco and even at that price, you don't get to see that many of 'em on the streets in the States.

Isn't that what Americans and Europeans do as well? What percentage of people purchasing moto jackets in the US/Europe actually ride a motorcycle, and purchase the jacket for that purpose?

Yes, but has the scene ever been as big anywhere else as it is in Japan? Hell, RMC is making their own Buco's, on the original machines from the period. Granted, these jackets became this and last years fashion trend pretty much everywhere but before that, ever since the 80's, a decent Perfecto styled jacket has been a thing of rarity in Europe (not to mention the more exotic styles, such as the D-pocket) and you didn't have that many companies making it even in the US - or at least I've near never seen a dude wearing it - while at the same time it's been big in Japan for years.

 

[nick123]

I've never been to Japan, so this isn't a statement; only my armchair opinion....

The Japanese "culture" we vaguely know of online aren't hipsters, they're not being played or silly for spending huge bucks on leather.
Then what are they?

One word: passionate. They're just into it. Not because they're trying to attain a certain image (though that's an impulsive secondary objective anyone has who purchases clothing). THOSE would be hipsters.

As far as I'm concern, the Ventures outsold the Beatles in Japan in the 60s, so that country is forever sacred in my book.

 

[Stand By]

And perhaps I'm wrong here, it was always my belief that the USA intentionally tried to re-cast Japan in its own image after WW2 in order to steer it in to to becoming a permanent ally … I mean, look at the baseball there! It's all American. So if that's true, it makes sense that that era (40s/50s) is indelibly stamped on the popular culture …
And my girlfriend is always wishing that I'd dress "less like 1942 and more 2014" … so I get the allure of the look. I'm guilty too.

And as for the bags, IMHO, I think it's a shame to do that to a good old service bag. I mean, if it could talk, imagine the tales it could tell from its service days - and after over a century, it seems a bit sacrilegious to do that to it.
And as stated, it kills its value as a military collectible right there.

 

[Monitor]

One word: passionate. They're just into it.

I agree. Completely.

Retrospectively, while I'd still like to know why of all things classic Americana, maybe the reason don't really matter at all. It's a very cool thing to be into - I'm into it, have been for years - and those guys aren't just doing it well, they're doing it right. Nobody would invest this much time and effort into a fad, in my opinion.

And yep, Stand By, that may very well be it as well.

BTW, 40's stuff's pretty fashionable right now, from the look of things so your girl shouldn't complain about the way you dress for at least a month. LOL

 

[Big J]

I don't want to de-rail the thread, but I do want to respond to some of the points raised above.

I think that in regards to Japanese obsession with US culture/vintage culture there are a number of factors at play here.

One that should not be over-looked is that it was a great era, after all, we don't call it the Golden Era for nothing! Here on this site, members have an active interest in the style, history, and culture of that era to some degree (and sometimes even all of the above!), but maybe for the vast majority of Americans, it's just something that they don't really think about very much, appreciate the significance of, and it's just something that is part 'of the background' of being an American (if at all). But I think that for US post war allies, the influence of US culture was maybe more massive than we appreciate (I'll come back to this, with regards to the Japanese below).

I think that for the Japanese, losing the war is the biggest cultural shock in living memory (maybe of all time). Lets not forget that wartime Japan was a fascist junta that told/brainwashed ordinary Japanese into believing a distorted version of bushido that prescribed that death was preferable to surrender, and that those who surrender deserve abuse and humiliation for not having the honor to die for the cause.

This ideology engendered as an essential requirement that ordinary Japanese must be prepared to die resisting US forces (never seen the picture of elementary school kids practicing with bamboo spears?) rather than surrendering, and that surrender would mean all sorts of abuse and degradation from the Americans (the Japanese army behaved pretty badly in China, and look at the way Allied POWs were treated- they were expecting to receive the same treatment from US forces).

But what actually happened? Well, whilst there are indeed accounts of misconduct by US occupation forces (every military has bad apples, right?), there was never an institutional system of abuse and degradation such as existed within the Japanese military in occupied lands. In fact, US forces generally treated the locals well during the occupation (I have a great occupation era US Army Japanese phrase book that reads like a beginners guide to tough guy Japanese).

During 1944/45 the air war on Japan burned this country to the ground, but more importantly, US submarines were sinking everything. The Japanese were eating belt leather, and the government was issuing advice on how to boil up saw-dust for human consumption. This was beyond dire. When the war finished, not only were the average Japanese not bullied, harassed, or victimized on the streets, but real food started flowing back into Japan. This kind of treatment must have been extremely jarring for the average Japanese given all the propaganda they had been subjected to.

Then, the Allies start stringing up the guys who not only put them through this misery and took away the lives of their sons/fathers/brothers, but change the constitution and give Japanese freedoms that they never had before (votes for women, for example, labor unions). For the average Japanese expecting to have become an American slave, this must have been a pleasant shock that caused them some deep reflection on the lies they had been told by their wartime leaders.

In this postwar ruin of a country, where everything had to be rebuilt from scratch (industry, schools, hospitals) for many years there was a strong backlash against a lot of Japanese culture since it was seen as part of the system that lied to them during the war. But, Hollywood was still functioning, and Japan was flooded with imported US movies, magazines, newsreels, and such during the occupation and beyond, and the Japanese lapped it up.

So, in a way, this Japanese interest in US culture is an outcome of Japanese society redefining itself in the aftermath of the total fail of it's fascist ideology, stems from a desire to understand who the invading Americans really are, and is a symbol of Japan's break with the past. It's a love letter to the US, in a way, and as dark and gray as any salaryman's life is, The American Dream means that he can be free at the weekend to ride his Harley, or sit outside a bar in his A-2 and smile at girls.

It's a testament to our humanity in occupation, and the extent to which Japanese society has turned it's back on imperial era ideology.

If the lounge has any Japanese members, I'd love to hear their opinions.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

I have a plan to get inshide Fort Knox double O Sheven...er, I mean Shveetie!!!

Then the ELCM Bags and accessories will be mine, oh yesh.

 

[IXL]

That's quite an insightful view, posted above, BigJ. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

 

[Monitor]

Yep, that was a great read, Big J. Interesting points.

 

[Stand By]

Great comments, Big J. Thoughtful, well composed and respectful. If ever there was a good and worthwhile derailment of a thread, you just made it. I feel as though I've learned something entirely new today, and that's never a bad thing. Nice one.

 

[bn1966]

Thanks for the post Big J, very educational and moving. Saw the film 'Emperor' the other day and found it very emotive and for me eye opening.

 

[Big J]

Thanks for the kind comments guys.

The Bank of Japan is going to keep printing yen until the PM's 2% inflation target is met, so the yen will only get cheaper from here. Add on top that next week we'll know if there will be a snap election to prevent a tax increase in December, which if that happens will make the yen even cheaper!

I'd say hold off on pulling the trigger on a Buzz Ricksons, or Real McCoys until after Christmas. At the rate the ¥/$ is going, you could have a nice little shopping trip to Japan next year.

 

[Superfluous]

Thanks for the kind comments guys.

The Bank of Japan is going to keep printing yen until the PM's 2% inflation target is met, so the yen will only get cheaper from here. Add on top that next week we'll know if there will be a snap election to prevent a tax increase in December, which if that happens will make the yen even cheaper!

I'd say hold off on pulling the trigger on a Buzz Ricksons, or Real McCoys until after Christmas. At the rate the ¥/$ is going, you could have a nice little shopping trip to Japan next year

Good intel . . . thanks!