Ebay Hats: Victories, Defeats, Gripes & Items of Interest

[HatsEnough]

I have a WWI Stetson U.S. Army campaign hat in the Montana Peak-style like the Trooper hat. That is as close as I'll come to any more like that.

 

[DJH]

That's interesting, Brad. I had no idea there was ever a connection between HCA and Winchester/Stratton. I assume there is none between Win/Strat and the current Hatco?

I should probably read more of your posts, I'm sure you've covered all this before.

 

[T Rick]

Brad, you're right it DOES suck being on a budget! Ah, but there will inevitably be more "must haves" and/or better deals to come our way (the seemingly endless parade on eBay won't dwindle for some time I think).

small, pinless Strat gets lots of love

Yep. A hefty bit of that love came from me, I have been watching it for several days. I was the second bidder at $202.02. I do hope someone here got it. I originally planned to set my snipe a bit higher, but with last night's purchase and two other hats already enroute, I figured other Strats will come along.

Looks like a new potential customer for the pins, Lefty!
I was (almost) tempted to play in the Strat auction, but decided to be sensible. Looked to be a nice example, to be fair.

Actually looked like a REALLY nice example, even nicer than the brown one I wore tonight. It was worth what it went for. I do hope someone here got it, and it does deserve a good pin. I hope the person who won had a real high max bid, I'd really kick myself if I found out it was only $205 .

 

[alanfgag]

not mine (though I tossed in a bid)
incredible deal on this 4x Balbi Super Borsalino, 7 1/2, just needs a ribbon

I was surprised that these two Borsalinos went so low... 5X and 6X velour marque grand luxe... apologies if they've been noted before.

 

[Iyor]

I was going to bid on those but I just don't like how I look in med gray.

 

[Lefty]

OK, so the Strat goes well over 200, but a better hat, a 25 in the same size can't hit the opening $80 bid?
I guess that peoples is peoples.

 

[Brad Bowers]

That's interesting, Brad. I had no idea there was ever a connection between HCA and Winchester/Stratton. I assume there is none between Win/Strat and the current Hatco?

I should probably read more of your posts, I'm sure you've covered all this before.

Yep, I've covered it before, but I can't remember what thread. I'll try to keep this short:
Since 1909, Hat Corporation of America (and Crofut & Knapp prior to that) had been an open shop, having kicked out the hatters' union after a particularly nasty strike. In 1946, HCA once again became unionized, but by the early-1950s they were looking at ways to cut their costs that had been rising since '46, in part due to union wages. They decided to open plants somewhere in the Midwest, stating they would be closer to their western markets. HCA planned to open a straw hat plant in Winchester, TN, and a felt hat finishing plant in Nevada, MO. Both were to be non-union, and when the union learned of this, they feared the Norwalk factory would be closed and they would lose their jobs, so they struck. This was 1953, and it was another bitter feud, which, when settled 10 months later, achieved essentially nothing for the union. The straw hat plant opened in TN, and the finishing plant in MO. The union tried to organize the Nevada, MO plant, prompting HCA to immediately shut the plant down. It had been a brand-new building, open for about a year.

It was at this time in the mid-1950s that the Salesky Brothers, founders and owners of Champ Hats, were able to acquire control of Hat Corporation of America. The long strike had hurt sales and the overall financial health of HCA enough that it was ripe for a takeover.

As part of more cost-cutting measures, HCA moved the felt hat finishing plant in 1960 to Winchester, TN. By 1970, they closed their large factory in Norwalk, CT, and opened a felting plant in Winchester to make hat bodies. The straw plants and the felt hat finishing plants were already there. HCA also had plants in Pennsylvania (part of Champ) and New Jersey, which remained open for two more years. In 1972, HCA sold the rights to all their brands to Koracorp, of Garland, TX, who also owned Resistol, Bradford, and Churchill. Koracorp had now added Dobbs, Knox, Cavanagh, along with Crofut & Knapp/Knapp-Felt, Dunlap, Byron, and Berg, though these last four were eventually abandoned.

When HCA sold off their brands, they closed their plants in TN, PA, and NJ. The Winchester felting plant reopened as a new company, Winchester Hat Company, not affiliated with HCA or Koracorp. Instead, Winchester Hat Co. went into business supplying their affiliate Stratton hats with felt bodies to be finished by Stratton for uniform/service hats. They also eventually began to supply felt hat bodies to custom hatters around the country, something they still do today, thank goodness!

I guess that wasn't short after all.

Anyway, that's why that Dobbs trooper hat and marked box were a unique connection to all of this history.
Brad

 

[HatsEnough]

... moral of the story.... unions destroy business.

 

[HatsEnough]

OK, so the Strat goes well over 200, but a better hat, a 25 in the same size can't hit the opening $80 bid?
I guess that peoples is peoples.

I was watching that 25 but $80 was too steep for me. Once the auction was over I offered the guy $50 and he said yes.

I'd guess a late 50s early 60s Stetson 25?

 

[monbla256]

Yep, I've covered it before, but I can't remember what thread. I'll try to keep this short:
Since 1909, Hat Corporation of America (and Crofut & Knapp prior to that) had been an open shop, having kicked out the hatters' union after a particularly nasty strike. In 1946, HCA once again became unionized, but by the early-1950s they were looking at ways to cut their costs that had been rising since '46, in part due to union wages. They decided to open plants somewhere in the Midwest, stating they would be closer to their western markets. HCA planned to open a straw hat plant in Winchester, TN, and a felt hat finishing plant in Nevada, MO. Both were to be non-union, and when the union learned of this, they feared the Norwalk factory would be closed and they would lose their jobs, so they struck. This was 1953, and it was another bitter feud, which, when settled 10 months later, achieved essentially nothing for the union. The straw hat plant opened in TN, and the finishing plant in MO. The union tried to organize the Nevada, MO plant, prompting HCA to immediately shut the plant down. It had been a brand-new building, open for about a year.

It was at this time in the mid-1950s, that the Salesky Brothers, founders and owners of Champ Hats, were able to acquire control of Hat Corporation of America. The long strike had hurt sales and the overall financial health of HCA enough that it was ripe for a takeover.

As part of more cost-cutting measures, HCA moved the felt hat finishing plant in 1960 to Winchester, TN. By 1970, the closed their large factory in Norwalk, CT, and 1960s opened a felting plant in Winchester to make hat bodies. The straw plants and the felt hat finishing plants were already there. HCA also had plants in Pennsylvania (part of Champ) and New Jersey, which remained open for two more years. In 1972, HCA sold the rights to all their brands to Koracorp, of Garland, TX, who also owned Resistol, Bradford, and Churchill. Koracorp had now added Dobbs, Knox, Cavanagh, along with Crofut & Knapp/Knapp-Felt, Dunlap, Byron, and Berg, though these last four were eventually abandoned.

When HCA sold off their brands, they closed their plants in TN, PA, and NJ. The Winchester felting plant reopened as a new company, Winchester Hat Company, not affiliated with HCA or Koracorp. Instead, Winchester Hat Co. went into business supplying their affiliate Stratton hats with felt bodies to be finished by Stratton for uniform/service hats. They also eventually began to supply felt hat bodies to custom hatters around the country, something they still do today, thank goodness!

I guess that wasn't short after all.

Anyway, that's why that Dobbs trooper hat and marked box were a unique connection to all of this history.
Brad

Thanks for covering that piece of history again. I had never read it before and appreciate your research and willingness to share. Learn something new here every day

 

[scooter]

Not to hijack this thread, but let's just say HE and I have a different opinion on unions. My union just saved my job after an accident (not entirely my fault). W/O unions, you're left in the boat my wife was in, fired after 10 years of service thanks to a petty grudge.

 

[fluteplayer07]

Staying away from politics, but without saying the latter is wrong; I must say Brad, you never cease to astound me with your knowledge. I always appreciate it and look forward to reading it.

 

[Flipped Lid]

I tried to buy my very first felt fedora, but fell short. If this had been gray or charcoal in color, I might have hung in there a little longer, but my suits and sport coats are largely blue or gray shades and I wouldn't have had an opportunity to wear it that much. It did look like a nice vintage hat, though. It also struck me that with freight, the price would be over one-fourth of the way toward my Art Fawcett custom-made. I'll keep my eyes peeled and find something decent for fifty or sixty dollars to wear in the meantime.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230643547597



I'm not particularly well-schooled in the ways of eBay, but I observed something that I thought appeared unethical. Maybe I just don't understand the process. I ran my bid up to $107.00 for the hat, still didn't have the winning bid, and decided to bow out. Earlier this afternoon I received a message that the current winning bidder had withdrawn his bid and that I was now winning with a bid of $51.00. I checked back in this evening and the same bidder who had withdrawn his bid earlier in the day was again winning with a bid of $109.00. I didn't want to go any higher and he won the hat. I don't know if he thought I'd go in and lower my maximum bid and not pay anymore attention so he'd get the hat cheaper or what, but I thought it was very strange that he'd withdraw his bid and just a few hours later submit the same bid again. Can anyone explain this?

 

[fmw]

Sure. The high bidder withdrew his bid leaving you as the high bidder at $51 which was just above the bidder behind you. You didn't act and the seller got another offer and took it - perhaps from the original high bidder or someone else - probably someone else. If you had jumped on the second chance by accepting it and paying for it, you would have had the hat for $51. Because you didn't, he was able to accept another offer. Once the auction is over, the Ebay rules don't apply. Anybody can offer and accept whatever since the sale did not complete on Ebay. Nothing unethical.

 

[Flipped Lid]

Sure. The high bidder withdrew his bid leaving you as the high bidder at $51 which was just above the bidder behind you. You didn't act and the seller got another offer and took it - perhaps from the original high bidder or someone else - probably someone else. If you had jumped on the second chance by accepting it and paying for it, you would have had the hat for $51. Because you didn't, he was able to accept another offer. Once the auction is over, the Ebay rules don't apply. Anybody can offer and accept whatever since the sale did not complete on Ebay. Nothing unethical.

I'm not sure I'm grasping your response although I greatly appreciate it. When I was winning the bid at $51.00, there were still several hours left in the auction and there was never a "buy it now" price. I don't think I could have owned it at that price. I got the message that I'd been outbid at $109 with about two hours left in the auction. I wasn't going any higher. It's not the end of the world. I just thought that would have been a nice one to start my collection with. Thanks again.

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

... moral of the story.... unions destroy business.

The hat business was losing anyway. Unions where just trying to save what little works had for a little longer.
I have had my job saved by a Union the way companies are run now days the worker is a disposable item.

 

[DJH]

Yep, I've covered it before, but I can't remember what thread. I'll try to keep this short:

Brad

Thanks so much for posting this Brad. Must have been a traumatic time for both the owners and the workers in the industry as the market disappeared so quickly. Easy to see what there was so much consolidation and aggressive attempts to reduce costs - no way those giant factories were going to survive.

Your research is hugely appreciated!

 

[fmw]

I'm not sure I'm grasping your response although I greatly appreciate it. When I was winning the bid at $51.00, there were still several hours left in the auction and there was never a "buy it now" price. I don't think I could have owned it at that price. I got the message that I'd been outbid at $109 with about two hours left in the auction. I wasn't going any higher. It's not the end of the world. I just thought that would have been a nice one to start my collection with. Thanks again.

I'm the one that was confused. I assume you got the message after the auction closed. If you got it before the auction closed then you just got an email from Ebay trying to drum up more bids. If you were at $107 and lost it at $109, then you were sniped (beaten by a computer program that bids in the final seconds of the auction.) Still not unethical. Sometimes I wish they would maky people pay 10 cents for emails. It sure would clear out the spam.

 

[bowlerman]

I'm not sure I'm grasping your response although I greatly appreciate it. When I was winning the bid at $51.00, there were still several hours left in the auction and there was never a "buy it now" price. I don't think I could have owned it at that price. I got the message that I'd been outbid at $109 with about two hours left in the auction. I wasn't going any higher. It's not the end of the world. I just thought that would have been a nice one to start my collection with. Thanks again.

Unethical or not, it's a little shady. It sounds to me like the original high bidder only accomplished exposing your high bid so that he or anyone else could gauge just how high they needed to go. I mean, just how far past your 107 was the original high bid?

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

What I have learned is to either bid real high or bid in the last 30 seconds. Love eBay on the iPhone keeps me intouch where ever I am no sniping needed I have beat snipers did last night.