Eastman's 'new' offering...

[Foster]

I suspect durning the hectic production days of WW2 probably more than a few jackets went out the door that were not exactly correct. I doubt any pilot returned his issue jacket because the pockets were a bit high or the fit not just right.

True, but the soldiers weren't paying for them out of their own pocket, and weren't paying in excess of $1000 for one either.

 

[scrawlysteve]

Wait, you bought a jacket 'cause you liked the way it looked? And a mil jacket at that? God. Why do we even have forums... lol lol

I've just made things worse for myself, haven't I ?

 

[Smithy]

I agree. It does not matter about the pocket placement on a generic modern repro. However if the repro is sold as an exact copy of an original contract A2 then all the details should be correct, including the placement of the pockets. Such an expectation is not OTT IMO.

Andrew has hit the nail on the head. Nothing wrong with house repros taking a bit of artistic licence but if you're selling a "replica" of an actual mil-spec contract then you really should have the little details covered.

Reason being is that the majority of those who want to buy copies of actual contract A-2s are au fait with the little details - that's why they want a specific contract, otherwise they'd spend less on a generic copy with a period feel like an Aero.

And that's why you have to ask why ELC do this pocket business. It basically excludes the main purchasers of contract replicas.

What with this and the recent rumour over at VLJ that ELC have stopped the long and extra long sizing options, I really wonder what's going on over there.

 

[Sloan1874]

If that's true, then it's very odd - "I'm sorry, tall thin guys, yer all out of luck!" - All the other makers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

 

[Smithy]

If that's true, then it's very odd - "I'm sorry, tall thin guys, yer all out of luck!" - All the other makers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

I couldn't agree more Sloan and if it is actually true then it's a bloody idiotic idea.

ELC can make absolutely stunning jackets (that fellow's B-6 posted a couple of days ago being case in point). The fleece and leather of my 1940 Pattern Irvin of theirs is identical to originals and I love it - it's ageing exactly like a wartime jacket. I just hope the sizing thing is crossed wires as it would be incredibly sad if true. I certainly wouldn't have ordered from them if I couldn't have adjusted the body and sleeve length.

 

[Otter]

Does no-one see the irony? Yes the pockets may be a little out of place, but if you are going to alter the body and arm length of any jacket to get the "perfect fit" then what does that make the most perfect repro?

I can leave it to your imagination the conversation that would take place when if newly minted 2nd Lt. took his jacket back to the QM Sgt. and said: "Can I have the same size but 2" longer in the body and 1" off the sleeves".

 

[Foster]

In the linked original photo, I think the tall Captain's jacket has pockets placed 'high' like some of the ELC ones. It makes me wonder if this was a feature of some of the larger sized jackets, since the A-2's were not produced and stocked in long/tall/short, etc, only in basic chest sizes.
http://www.303rdbg.com/pp-long-short.html

 

[ButteMT61]

Does no-one see the irony? Yes the pockets may be a little out of place, but if you are going to alter the body and arm length of any jacket to get the "perfect fit" then what does that make the most perfect repro?

I can leave it to your imagination the conversation that would take place when if newly minted 2nd Lt. took his jacket back to the QM Sgt. and said: "Can I have the same size but 2" longer in the body and 1" off the sleeves".

I've brought that up at least three times in these accuracy discussions and it doesn't get much traction. I'm 100% with you on that.
Accurate means get the size that is closest and live with it. That's what they did in WWII I hear.

 

[Sloan1874]

Absolutely! But then again, the Quartermaster didn't need to worry about whether they were able to make the rent on their workshop at the end of the month The whole issue is fraught with contradictions, isn't it, but I'd feel a bit bad for the taller people who fancy an ELC only to be told that they'd have to put up with it ending somewhere around their navel. The obvious answer, of course, is if ELC are stopping doing longer bodies, then choose another maker who'll do the length that you want and buy from them. [huh]

 

[Stand By]

Absolutely! But then again, the Quartermaster didn't need to worry about whether they were able to make the rent on their workshop at the end of the month The whole issue is fraught with contradictions, isn't it, but I'd feel a bit bad for the taller people who fancy an ELC only to be told that they'd have to put up with it ending somewhere around their navel. The obvious answer, of course, is if ELC are stopping doing longer bodies, then choose another maker who'll do the length that you want and buy from them. [huh]

I agree with ButteMT61 - that these jackets were whizzed out of factories and were thrown at the air crew by a QM - that's how it was. And quality control on the production line wasn't what it is today and anomalies abounded within the designs (as best as I can tell. Others know these things better than I) - but we all know that certain manufacturers had definite styles (rounded collars, squared pocket flaps and certain colours of leathers and knits) - and as long as the reproduction manufacturer today captures the correct "flavour" of that distinct house-style (and the materials are all first rate), I think it's a winner.

Anomalies abounded. As I said to another new fellow here a little while ago who was worrying about his ELC Werber not being quite the same colour as what he saw on their website, you would need a colour spectrum photometer to accurately determine and quantify the colours of a given jacket to asses it - and then use it again to assess the reproduction for tonal accuracy. But these original things varied as the hides varied as per the animal, plus dyes wouldn't have been accurately and carefully measured to the Nth degree (they'd have been sloshed into vats via buckets, I imagine), nor the exact amount of time the hides soaked in them would have been precisely the same with each batch - it all varied by degree. That's human error for you.
But to the general eye, they looked virtually the same as having the same house style that we all prefer for one reason or another - before they were loaded on to trucks and sent to the bases where they were needed ASAP for the war effort.

As for the pockets discussed here ... I'll be honest and say that I've looked again at the side-by-side photos and even had a ruler on my screen - and the only difference I can see is the way the ELC jacket was placed on the floor for the photos, as it shows more epaulette, and as a result to my eye, looks a tad shorter in the body for it. The distance between the hem and the bottom of the pocket looks the same, as does the height of the pocket - so it has to be right (to my mind/eye). That said, I haven't seen the VLJ pics as I can't access it.

And as you say, Sloan - IF ELC has decided to no longer offer longer bodies, then personally, I think that's a mistake - just as people aren't the same build as they were in the war years either, and any modern clothier should take that into account it they hope to survive ... But I think we're speculating until we KNOW otherwise.
And if it is true, then yes, simply look elsewhere - I'm not quite as great a fan of the ELC hides as I used to be (although they appear to have improved greatly since the "aged" leathers were first rolled out) and that was part of why I started to look at other companies and ultimately I ended up at Aero.

And surely, I appreciate the fact that each jacket has a slightly different patina in the hide and will have a tiny amount of variance - because it was made by a human, not a machine (thank God). It will look like whatever it's supposed to - but it's unique in the world in its own way. And I like that.

 

[Otter]

+1
Amen brother, testify!

 

[ButteMT61]

Of course when I say this I take myself out of owning an "accurate" A-2 (G-1, etc) as I would not fit into an off the rack jacket.
SO for a guy like me, I like an "almost accurate" jacket that's high quality and fits well. Which is why an Aero A-2 is fine for me. However, I'd wager that the accuracy fanatics (said in the positive sense) would not settle for a jacket they could not customize, size-wise.
If I saw guys buying $1500 repros without custom sizing, I'd be convinced of the dedication.

 

[Smithy]

Accurate means get the size that is closest and live with it. That's what they did in WWII I hear.

Yeah right. But the guys in WWII weren't shelling out upwards of a $1,000 a jacket.

 

[Stand By]

Yeah right. But the guys in WWII weren't shelling out upwards of a $1,000 a jacket.

Unless they bought a private-purchase A2 (and some did) - but Uncle Sam paid for the jackets and the air crews got them for free - to wear in Harm's Way and I'd still say they were very much paid for and cost a lot!

 

[Otter]

Yeah right. But the guys in WWII weren't shelling out upwards of a $1,000 a jacket.

Only their life.

 

[ButteMT61]

Yeah right. But the guys in WWII weren't shelling out upwards of a $1,000 a jacket.

Moot point.

 

[Smithy]

Moot point.

Not really.

That's supposedly the joy with repros, you can get varying degrees of accuracy but in a size which fits. It's why John Chapman has been such a success for those who want a stitch-for-stitch replica of an actual contract but with some fit customisation.

At the end of the day if you really, really want as close to the real thing, then buy an original.

I still haven't seen it confirmed that ELC has stopped the long and extra long sizing but if it's true then I personally think it's a big mistake.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Did Anyone mention the original Jacket Is 70 Years older than the Brand new un-worn Version in the side-by side photos..

I mean, Doesnt Leather Shrink!!!!

Its all too aribrary, If Im paying for perfection I want a wartime look that was Hastily slapped together on the Busy production line, even if that gets me a few lop-sided and crooked seams etc, its all about character...When I see a 70 Year old Eastman, I will let you know if those pocket measurements were worth the Case in point;

buying an A-2 in the thousand dollar Range means; I Rule the world of flight jackets, with or without an original to hold a candle to.

Maybe Like it was said before, Jacket Cuts will vary subjectionally.

Who knows which is more correct...I go with the pros on this guys.

I would be happy to even TOUCH one of these Jackets...pocket heigh aside.

 

[aswatland]

Did Anyone mention the original Jacket Is 70 Years older than the Brand new un-worn Version in the side-by side photos...

This is taken as read my friend.

I mean, Doesnt Leather Shrink!!!!

Yes it does, but the rate will depend on several factors, including how and where a jacket was stored since the War.The shrinkage on original A2s would have to be largely confined to the area below the pockets to account for the significant difference seen on most original A2s compared with Eastmans!

Its all too aribrary, If Im paying for perfection I want a wartime look that was Hastily slapped together on the Busy production line, even if that gets me a few lop-sided and crooked seams etc, its all about character...When I see a 70 Year old Eastman, I will let you know if those pocket measurements were worth the Case in point;

Wartime jackets were not necessarily "hastily slapped together". The quality of the construction varied considerably from maker to maker, but they all had to pass government inspection before they left the factory.

buying an A-2 in the thousand dollar Range means; I Rule the world of flight jackets, with or without an original to hold a candle to.

Maybe Like it was said before, Jacket Cuts will vary subjectionally.

Who knows which is more correct...I go with the pros on this guys.

Serious collectors of original A2s certainly know what is correct. Comparing the placement of pockets on ELC jackets with originals from the same contract will show that ELC place their pockets further from the waistband than on original A2s.

I would be happy to even TOUCH one of these Jackets...pocket heigh aside.

You can as ELC jackets can be bought reasonably on Ebay.

 

[rocketeer]

Its all too aribrary, If Im paying for perfection I want a wartime look that was Hastily slapped together on the Busy production line, even if that gets me a few lop-sided and crooked seams etc, its all about character...When I see a 70 Year old Eastman, I will let you know if those pocket measurements were worth the Case in point;

buying an A-2 in the thousand dollar Range means; I Rule the world of flight jackets, with or without an original to hold a candle to.

My original A2(Lucky7Seven) jacket has lots of wonky stitching, in fact all 4 box stitching on the epaulets are different sizes. Would you pay for this slap dash approach in a repro.

I know the original jackets are 70+ years old but I doubt they have been worn constantly, probably if you have owned a repro 25-30 years, it will develop a patina equal to an original. When I started collecting jackets the interest was entirely different to today which is probably why I am not too bothered about the 100% authenticity collectors want these days. Labels were mentioned but not contracts, markings were discussed but not usually the placement from maker to maker etc.
Despite my opinions on jacket collecting past and present, I can agree with those on here who are fussy about these things. Would you pay £700-$1000 for an accurate reproduction but that it came with period faults such as wobbly stitching on epaulets and wind flaps, or would you be on to the makers, maybe replying "Who made this? I pay £700 for a jacket, I want it to look like a £700 jacket'
John

Ps: I stopped collecting jackets over 10 years ago. Onto daily wearers now, the only jacket in my collection is my Lucy & Seven, though I also have a dodgy early Eastman.