Eastman Leather jackets

[Seb Lucas]

I get you now, CP. Yes, I read it on COW- On October 18 2009, Patterson, a member here and a collector of A2's wrote:

Something to be aware of with Eastman. They have been caught red-handed several times selling steerhide as horse. The only jackets they've ever properly labeled are the PH jackets. They were forced to prperly disclose due to the relation of the jackets to the movie and the associated licensing through Disney. Licensed products through Disney require proof of origin and material components. They don't want Disney miniatures to come from china containng lead. The same disclosure requirements led to Eastman actually admitting they used steer for the PH jackets. There is a very strong belief that all oftheir HH is really steer. Is there a performance difference? Likely not.


Now I'm not accusing any company of anything and frankly, the whole point of forums like this is to sift for the truth. Sometimes an uncomfortable hypothesis needs to be tested Creeping Past and we should never worship any company as an infallible merchant of virtue - look at how Wested has come out in recent times...

BTW Patterson does know his stuff (in my experience).

The film referred to in the above quoted post is Peal Harbour - Eastman supplied the A2's.

 

[captaincaveman1]

Wow that's quite a bombshell if it can be substantiated. If I paid close to 1000 USD for a jacket you can be darn sure I'd want to get exactly what I paid for.

Can anyone corroborate this?

I get you now, CP. Yes, I read it on COW- On October 18 2009, Patterson, a member here and a collector of A2's wrote:

Something to be aware of with Eastman. They have been caught red-handed several times selling steerhide as horse. The only jackets they've ever properly labeled are the PH jackets. They were forced to prperly disclose due to the relation of the jackets to the movie and the associated licensing through Disney. Licensed products through Disney require proof of origin and material components. They don't want Disney miniatures to come from china containng lead. The same disclosure requirements led to Eastman actually admitting they used steer for the PH jackets. There is a very strong belief that all oftheir HH is really steer. Is there a performance difference? Likely not.


Now I'm not accusing any company of anything and frankly, the whole point of forums like this is to sift for the truth. Sometimes an uncomfortable hypothesis needs to be tested Creeping Past and we should never worship any company as an infallible merchant of virtue - look at how Wested has come out in recent times...

BTW Patterson does know his stuff (in my experience).

The film referred to in the above quoted post is Peal Harbour - Eastman supplied the A2's.

 

[Edward]

I have no horse (nor a cow!) in this race, but I think it worth pointing out that until such times as this can be proven, it is simply unsubstantiated rumour, which can amount to libel. Probably best to exercise caution here....

 

[Jeff M]

One last question...
What type of lining is in the sleeves? Is it the same wool as on the collar/body, or is it lined cloth of some type?

 

[Elmonteman]

The accusation about Eastman and the steer hides goes back to about the year 2000. If you have Eastman jackets that predate that time (I have a couple of their A-2's) you will notice that they do not have labels which describe the hide. Eastman never stated that all their jackets were horsehide. They offered horse hide but they also offered steer hide. It turned out that some of the jackets, when horse hide was not specifically requested, were made of steer. There was a little joke about these hides being the "hides of default".

Naturally this stunned the A-2 jacket crowd. Eastman then began to label each jacket so that it would be clear what type of hide was used. I'm not sure if this was voluntary. I do remember Gary Eastman posting that this requirement was very annoying, time consuming and expensive.

This period of time, 2000-2001, was very lively with respect to A-2's and discussion groups. People treated differing opinions and each other somewhat rudely. No opportunity was lost to skewer the other camp's A-2 manufacturer. It was rumoured that as a result of repeating the accusation against Eastman that the company sued and won a judgement against some poor poster.

In those days it was not uncommon for Gary Eastman, Charles from HPA, Ken Calder from Aero and yes, even Stuart from Lost Worlds to post to the discussion groups. Unfortunately many of these people grew weary of the quality of these discussions and ceased participating.

Three of the old discussion groups:

deja . comm . a2jackets founded May 11 1999 ended July 2000
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlightJacketsEtc/ Part of AcmeDepot.com

FlightJacketsEtc http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flightjacketsetc/
founded July 30, 2000 ended December 2001

The Classic 20th http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheClassic20th/
founded September 21, 2000

The only one still in existence is the Classic 20th. This group was founded by Ken Calder or at his request because the heavy bias of the second group listed above. Unfortunately Ken has long since stopped being connected to that group. It's only a shadow of it's former feisty glory. At that time Stuart Clurman of LW even hosted his own discussion group. When you see some of his negative comments about discussion groups on his website, I think it is primarily in reference to that period.

 

[surdanis]

One last question...
What type of lining is in the sleeves? Is it the same wool as on the collar/body, or is it lined cloth of some type?

Somehow, I feel this thread is being hijacked...

The lining is same throughout: sheep fleece like the collar. It's really quite nice on my B-3. Irvin is a good choice though! ELC direct is also better due to pricing, but expect up to four weeks for processing and then a few days for delivery.

 

[Creeping Past]

Wow that's quite a bombshell if it can be substantiated.

We're veering way fftopic:

But this is my point exactly. It can't be substantiated

Seb's made a damning statement, backed it up by saying that some vague hypothesis needs testing (the hypothesis he's referring to, incidentally, being an empty assertion based on someone else's unsupported slur that he read on another forum).

This is rumour, tending towards slander. I doubt it's true. In fact, I go so far as to say that Seb's intent on spreading rumours, which is tantamount to lying.

This is not the forum for rumour, gossip and slander.

Seb should stop and delete his silly posts.

As Elmonteman says, cow is and has never been sold as horse by Eastman.

That's me off the fence. I shan't post any further on this subject.

 

[Seb Lucas]

CP, thanks for ordering me around, calling me a liar and for throwing the word silly at me too, classy work, buddy.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

We're veering way fftopic:

But this is my point exactly. It can't be substantiated

Seb's made a damning statement, backed it up by saying that some vague hypothesis needs testing (the hypothesis he's referring to, incidentally, being an empty assertion based on someone else's unsupported slur that he read on another forum).

This is rumour, tending towards slander. I doubt it's true. In fact, I go so far as to say that Seb's intent on spreading rumours, which is tantamount to lying.

This is not the forum for rumour, gossip and slander.

Seb should stop and delete his silly posts.

As Elmonteman says, cow is and has never been sold as horse by Eastman.

That's me off the fence. I shan't post any further on this subject.

Hmmm....So happens that I was there when this was discussed on those other forums years ago. The fact that there were those owners ,at the time,that were quite surprised that their ELC A2s may not be HH...but indeed Steer...should not to be glossed over. One member brought this claim to the attention of others on the forum and,after it ballooned into quite a controversy,was threatened with a lawsuit if he did not later apologise for some of his statements. He did so...and to my knowledge the suite was never pressed further. Some claimed,while defending ELC,that if the little box for HH wasn't checked on the ELC order form...they might have been sent steer. Whether this,indeed,truely happened or not...ELC later labeled their future jackets as HH or steer. However...the discussion seemed a little more than just rumor. A technicallity..perhaps..that caused confusion? In any event...that mishap or perplexity was remedied..and now is only in the past. It is still brought up from time to time..even though the hide is now clearly labeled in the pocket...as I understand it.
HD

 

[H.Johnson]

Not wishing to take the thread further off topic but this is what I remember
of one incident taken from personal communication from the parties involved:

Ken Calder obtained an ELC jacket from a Roughwear contract frm an ELC customer. The ELC advertisements for these jackets made statements to the effect that they were authentic replicas or accurate copies of the original contract. In Ken's opinion, the hide was bovine rather than equine, while the specification for the original USAAF contract called for horsehide. This, said Ken, meant that cowhide was beaing sold as horsehide. He refered the case to the Trading Standards Agency who sent an officer to Davey's Cross. Since ELC didn't actually claim anywhere that horsehide was used in those particular jackets, the officer reported and the TSA concluded that there was no case to answer.

I can only add that it was standard practice among UK leather clothing vendors up to that the time (circa 2000) only to make a jacket out of horsehide if that was specifically requested, so statements about a 'hide of default' would have reflected how things were done.

At about that time I bought an A-2 repro. from a UK maker and was rather surprised to find that it appeared to be horsehide (I hadn't specified the leather). I contacted the (excellent) maker thinking that he may have sent a more expensive jacket than I had bought and he told me that he just ordered hides from the tannery and didn't think too much about whether they were cow and horse! I like that approach...

Hmmm....So happens that I was there when this was discussed on those other forums years ago. The fact that there were those owners ,at the time,that were quite surprised that their ELC A2s may not be HH...but indeed Steer...should not to be glossed over. One member brought this claim to the attention of others on the forum and,after it ballooned into quite a controversy,was threatened with a lawsuit if he did not later apologise for some of his statements. He did so...and to my knowledge the suite was never pressed further. Some claimed,while defending ELC,that if the little box for HH wasn't checked on the ELC order form...they might have been sent steer. Whether this,indeed,truely happened or not...ELC later labeled their future jackets as HH or steer. However...the discussion seemed a little more than just rumor. A technicallity..perhaps..that caused confusion? In any event...that mishap or perplexity was remedied..and now is only in the past. It is still brought up from time to time..even though the hide is now clearly labeled in the pocket...as I understand it.
HD

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Not wishing to take the thread further off topic but this is what I remember
of one incident taken from personal communication from the parties involved:

Ken Calder obtained an ELC jacket from a Roughwear contract frm an ELC customer. The ELC advertisements for these jackets made statements to the effect that they were authentic replicas or accurate copies of the original contract. In Ken's opinion, the hide was bovine rather than equine, while the specification for the original USAAF contract called for horsehide. This, said Ken, meant that cowhide was beaing sold as horsehide. He refered the case to the Trading Standards Agency who sent an officer to Davey's Cross. Since ELC didn't actually claim anywhere that horsehide was used in those particular jackets, the officer reported and the TSA concluded that there was no case to answer.

I can only add that it was standard practice among UK leather clothing vendors up to that the time (circa 2000) only to make a jacket out of horsehide if that was specifically requested, so statements about a 'hide of default' would have reflected how things were done.

At about that time I bought an A-2 repro. from a UK maker and was rather surprised to find that it appeared to be horsehide (I hadn't specified the leather). I contacted the (excellent) maker thinking that he may have sent a more expensive jacket than I had bought and he told me that he just ordered hides from the tannery and didn't think too much about whether they were cow and horse! I like that approach...

During that same time period...I purchased one of my first A2s from a UK based maker who clearly advertised specific jackets as HH or others as steer on their website. I liked that approach....and had no need to question the owner,Ken Calder,about it later.
HD

 

[tonypaj]

It is totally against the etiquette to try to diffuse a barely blossoming cyberfight. Fight on, that's the spirit...

As far as the leathers go, I still doubt that people can differentiate between steerhide and horsehide once the leather is well worn, most won't be able to do it ever. I liken it to cigars, wine, music, I have my opinion, and it's purely subjective, and I also happen to like my opinion, even if it is based on nothing. Cowhide, horsehide, if the jacket pleases me, it pleases me.

 

[PADDY]

Case closed.

This was the original question.

I live in the US, and I'm looking into purchasing an Eastman RAF sheepskin leather jacket.
There looks to 2 different outlets.
One in the US in New Jersey,;
And one in England;
which looks like the parent company.
Any suggestions as to which one to purchase from?

Looks simple enough [huh] It now looks to have been answered.

I'm rather unsure as to the etiquette you're used to displaying in other rooms, but whilst on my 'turf' I'd appreciate it if you refrain from venturing into off topic diatribes that border on being libellous 'Gentlemen...'
"If" you have such strong concerns that keep you awake at night, then please address them directly to those persons or organisations you feel fit to make allegations towards. Thank-you.