Droopy shoulder/rotated sleeves

[ykurtz]

I ask as I would have assumed that leather, over time, will actually 'mould' to the wearer much more so than a tailored, structured fabric jacket surely.

A quality suit jacket/sports coat will have a full or half canvass interior (usually made of wool and/or horsehair) between the outer fabric and lining. This molds to your body over time and can make the jacket's fit more personal.

 

[Monitor]

View attachment 25478
What I want is "C" look

Heh, now that you've mentioned it, I've actually noticed that. With Schott, I've always had the C look and it was pissing me off because the jacket was sticking out like that like an idiot. B with Aero J106, HWM and A with Aero MC jacket. I prefer B look.

 

[Seb Lucas]

A quality suit jacket/sports coat will have a full or half canvass interior (usually made of wool and/or horsehair) between the outer fabric and lining. This molds to your body over time and can make the jacket's fit more personal.

Horsehair. That's very interesting. In 50 years I've never had to wear a suit so I know nothing about them.

 

[Mark]

But that was what the jacket maker and I both learned during the fitting process of the prototype, I live in a country where making a tailor made leather jacket from scratch is still a feasible option (if not the only option to get a decent looking leather jacket locally).
before the sleeve rotated forward the jacket body floated around my torso when worn, and once I asked them to rotate the sleeve forward, then whenever I bring my arm down, the front of the jacket presses my torso making a clean looking front.
I can't explain it in word but sleeve rotation on the shoulder especially when the jacket is thick and can't really drape when unzipped/ or when a little bit roomy on the waist even when zipped would make one of these look from the side ( I exaggerated the drawing a little to show it better)
View attachment 25478
What I want is "C" look

The high underarm thing I learned from another jacket I bought online (not a leather but a waxed thick denim jacket), it was so slim fitting around the sleeve and torso yet have more generous underarm, I can't move my arm at all in it, so I have it altered, at first adding a small biswing, and rotated sleeve (still didn't give enough movement for driving) so I asked them to raise the armpit and that fixed the movement problem, although I have to get use to a very tight and snug underarm cut of the sleeve now.

You have my admiration, you have taken the subject very seriously and turned it into an art form.

 

[Sloan1874]

Possibly the most informative thread in a wee while.

 

[Fanch]

+1

 

[A-1]

This is a very interesting read.

 

[regius]

when I stand with my arms straight down to my sides, I want the silhouette of my arm to be as vertically straight as possible, no bulges or droopiness.
however I want the neck sloping down to the shoulder and not horizontal.
slim sleeve, rotated forward & high underarm is a must for me , so I can get away with cleanest and smallest looking gusset as possible, and still having a fully functional movements in my arm, I also love the side effect of rotated forward sleeve, it makes the chest of the jacket pressing hard against my chest when my arms in neutral position, and when unzipped, it will push the bottom of the jacket to the back a little also make "A" shape opening for jacket with central zipper.

That's some very precise and vivid description, I like! Thank you very much for the input.

 

[regius]

Chest measurements are considered 'universal' by many jacket vendors, and when people actually provide a chest measurement for a jacket, they do so by laying a jacket flat, then measuring from armpit seam to armpit seam. So a person with a 42" chest should have a jacket that fits the same across the chest as another person with a 42" chest, right? Nope. People are three dimensional (at least physically) so how that jacket actually fits depends on a lot of things, e.g. how much more material is in the back of the jacket vs the front, where the armpit is located in relation to jacket height, etc. Just take a look at two cross sections of two people with the identical chest measurement to see what I mean:



Both are 42" (for the sake of argument), but their shapes are dramatically different, and the same jacket will fit and look very different on them.

YKURTZ, very sound argument, thanks. I agree, the amount of material used on the back side vs front determines the "girth" of the torso from the lateral view, as far as a non-action back jacket is concerned, and of course, determines the forward stretch limit. With modern men's more developed upper lat muscles, there needs to be more rear material, or, add a connective panel on each side (but for A2 repro, this is not relevant), or under arm football.

 

[regius]

I understand the necessity to have a form fitted suit jacket tailored like this, but is it as important with leather?
I ask as I would have assumed that leather, over time, will actually 'mould' to the wearer much more so than a tailored, structured fabric jacket surely.

Dan_T, not all leather jacket will mold, or, more precisely, not all parts of the leather jacket will mold, in fact, the molding only occur when there is incongruence. It's like shoes, if it's too roomy that your foot don't even touch the leather, there is little reason for the leather to mold to your foot. So for jacket, the shoulders, elbow, chest, upper back will most likely to mold, unless the shoulder is too ballooned up. A forward tilted sleeve (meaning when viewed from the side, the sleeves naturally tilts forward with the cuff pointing to the rear of the jacket) will cause the back panel of the jacket to mold more to the back contour, while allowing the bottom front sticking out (unless the waist line is very trim) and vice versa.

 

[regius]

But that was what the jacket maker and I both learned during the fitting process of the prototype, I live in a country where making a tailor made leather jacket from scratch is still a feasible option (if not the only option to get a decent looking leather jacket locally).
before the sleeve rotated forward the jacket body floated around my torso when worn, and once I asked them to rotate the sleeve forward, then whenever I bring my arm down, the front of the jacket presses my torso making a clean looking front.
I can't explain it in word but sleeve rotation on the shoulder especially when the jacket is thick and can't really drape when unzipped/ or when a little bit roomy on the waist even when zipped would make one of these look from the side ( I exaggerated the drawing a little to show it better)
View attachment 25478
What I want is "C" look

My Aero jerky A2 is the A look.....

 

[navetsea]

@ Monitor
probably Schott take chopper riders with apehanger handlebar into consideration for more serious forward rotation ha ha, mine is just sticking on the back a little bit more than the front.

@Mark & Regius
Thanks, it was very lucky of me to find someone who can & willing to make a pattern based on my drawing of a leather jacket and for a single purchase without costing me both arms and legs and kidney in return. So my brother also got interested and ask me to draw him something like mine but with off center zipper to be made by them, I already gave them the drawing, probably this week we would meet and this time I will more frequently visit them and take more work in progress photos as it goes.

 

[Matylda]

Hello, My husband has a recurrent problem with his suits which he makes and orders from China. The measurements he takes seem to be correct and accurate but the sleeves of his suits always come out wrong. They are not too tight or too baggy; they simply do not hang well on him showing quite a lot of strain lines at the front.

Are there any parameters that could be checked during taking measurements or any existing patterns/correlations (between somebody’s measurements or suit’s parts like armholes, shoulders width, chest size, arms size, sleeve itself) that shall be taken into account or checked well before the suit is made in order to avoid this problem? Does the posture or shoulder’s type matter?

Are there any different types of mannequins (made according to clients different body build/posture/shoulder types) available in the market/industry which help the tailors or companies which design and sell suits to spot the sleeve pitch problem during the QC process and before the suit is delivered to the client’s door?

Thank you very very much for your answer/ precious advice/suggestions in advance!
I would really like to understand better the nature of this issue.

Regards,

Matylda

 

[TREEMAN]

WAY TOO MUCH INFO FOR ME..............

 

[yakima]

I'm honestly not sure just what the OP meant to ask here. Is he asking about rotated sleeves on the one hand, and droopy shoulders on another - or the two things together?

And are we talking about, say, leather jackets, or are we talking about suit jackets or whatever?

If we are talking about leather jackets (and I hope we are), then @navetsea did an excellent job on post #15 of explaining the benefits of sleeve rotation.

Looking at "droopy shoulders", this really depends on whether or not you are buying vintage jackets, or jackets based on vintage patterns. Prior the 1900, many jackets (and shirts, for that matter) had simple vertical seams where the sleeve met the body of the garment. A number of early Levi Strauss jackets/shirts have been produced lately, and here is a jacket by Whitefeather of Austria, based on an 1880 Greenbaum design.

Note the vertical seams, which will result in very droopy shoulders.

If you don't want droopy shoulders, just stay away from manufacturers who make vintage correct garments.