Droopy shoulder/rotated sleeves

[regius]

I would like to get some feedback on the perks that come with so-called rotated sleeves and droopy shoulders. I feel that one camp of jacket lovers like the square, dominant, disciplined shoulder look, where the top of the shoulder and the upper sleeve form a distinct angle, vs. the others that has a rounded shoulder. A third type is the sloped shoulder line, purely by design, not because of the attachement of sleeves that mechanically pulls the shoulder down.

For the first type, my most dramatic example is the willis geiger A2, somehow the way their sleeves are attached makes the sleeves almost vertical to the ground and the epaulettes horizontal to the ground, giving the Gumby look; the second type is Aero A2s, which makes me look like I'm doing a "most muscular" pose in bodybuilding, but I like it; the third type for me is the Terminator jacket by Bates, the shoulders are sloped by design, which also enhances me trep muscle, like the Rock or the Hulk, which I like.

I want to hear other members' opinion and experiences, regarding the shape of the shoulder, sleeve rotation and therefore movement, etc.

 

[navetsea]

when I stand with my arms straight down to my sides, I want the silhouette of my arm to be as vertically straight as possible, no bulges or droopiness.
however I want the neck sloping down to the shoulder and not horizontal.
slim sleeve, rotated forward & high underarm is a must for me , so I can get away with cleanest and smallest looking gusset as possible, and still having a fully functional movements in my arm, I also love the side effect of rotated forward sleeve, it makes the chest of the jacket pressing hard against my chest when my arms in neutral position, and when unzipped, it will push the bottom of the jacket to the back a little also make "A" shape opening for jacket with central zipper.

 

[Mark]

when I stand with my arms straight down to my sides, I want the silhouette of my arm to be as vertically straight as possible, no bulges or droopiness.
however I want the neck sloping down to the shoulder and not horizontal.
slim sleeve, rotated forward & high underarm is a must for me , so I can get away with cleanest and smallest looking gusset as possible, and still having a fully functional movements in my arm, I also love the side effect of rotated forward sleeve, it makes the chest of the jacket pressing hard against my chest when my arms in neutral position, and when unzipped, it will push the bottom of the jacket to the back a little also make "A" shape opening for jacket with central zipper.

That's an awesome answer, never imagined you could extrapolate such a lot of information from putting on a jacket! I just look in the mirror, if it looks good then i'm happy.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Can we have pictures? I've got no idea what anyone's talking about.

 

[Monitor]

lol ditto @ Mark and Seb Lucas. Okay, droopy shoulders sure suck, that one's easy (provided we're talking about the same thing) but I've no idea what's that 'sleeve rotation' thing you guys are talking about... lol

 

[Fanch]

Talking about jackets and pretzels. lol

 

[ykurtz]

I believe the OP is referring to sleeve pitch. If so, here's an article that goes into it in some detail: http://parisiangentleman.co.uk/acad...ow-how-sleeve-pitch-can-make-or-break-a-suit/

As a buyer of bespoke suits, this is an important detail in overall look while standing in a relaxed position: you don't want unseemly wrinkles and dents appearing on a sleeve, but rather have the sleeve flow smoothly from top to bottom in a normal stance.

Due to posture, muscle development, skeletal variance, etc., how a jacket's sleeve pitch is set up can have an impact on how it looks from the side. Unfortunately, for most leather jackets, this isn't something many vendors will allow you to control. So if your arms tend to fall a little back or thrust forward more than average, you're going to have sleeve wrinkles/gaps. Most jackets have the sleeve pitched slightly forward, which seems to work out for the majority of people. People who stand uncommonly erect or have a body building past, however, will likely have a harder time avoiding issues re: sleeve pitch.

Here's a picture of me getting fitted for a bespoke suit; note the sleeve pitch and zero wrinkles on the sleeves standing normally:

 

[Fanch]

On a more serious note, talking about a jacket where the shoulder seam sits flush at the widest part of the shoulder, with no drooping, and has very high, small armholes, so the jacket fits more or less the same as a slim fitting shirt. Almost impossible to attain though unless the jacket is made to measure, with very little margin of error. Correct?

 

[ykurtz]

On a more serious note, talking about a jacket where the shoulder seam sits flush at the widest part of the shoulder, with no drooping, and has very high, small armholes, so the jacket fits more or less the same as a slim fitting shirt. Almost impossible to attain though unless the jacket is made to measure, with very little margin of error. Correct?

Agreed. Depending on your body type and the patterns used by the jacket vendor, a fit will work 'more or less'. Some vendor's patterns will work for certain people and not very well for others; hard to determine based purely on measurements, basically involves trial and error which can sometimes be ameliorated by talking about fit on forums such as this. However, most people are relatively average so will not really encounter much deviation in their purchases. So discussion around these 'finer points' will typically be few and far between.

 

[ykurtz]

Chest measurements are considered 'universal' by many jacket vendors, and when people actually provide a chest measurement for a jacket, they do so by laying a jacket flat, then measuring from armpit seam to armpit seam. So a person with a 42" chest should have a jacket that fits the same across the chest as another person with a 42" chest, right? Nope. People are three dimensional (at least physically) so how that jacket actually fits depends on a lot of things, e.g. how much more material is in the back of the jacket vs the front, where the armpit is located in relation to jacket height, etc. Just take a look at two cross sections of two people with the identical chest measurement to see what I mean:



Both are 42" (for the sake of argument), but their shapes are dramatically different, and the same jacket will fit and look very different on them.

 

[Monitor]

Okay, I think I get it now (thanks, ykurtz) but man, I don't know... I mean, I love leather jackets mainly from a design and artistic perspective, I'm crazy about all those details that make difference between the styles and so on but what these jackets do for me, in all honesty, means little to me. As long as the jacket's close to the size I wear, I care very little about the fit because I don't think my... appearance is worth the fuss...

Though I can see how easily could one get into this so I'd best stop reading this thread while there's still hope.

 

[ykurtz]

Though I can see how easily could one get into this so I'd best stop reading this thread while there's still hope.

 

[Fanch]

Actually, this is an interesting discussion, and my fellow TFL member close to my zip code, if not the same, expressed the situation extremely well. Proper fit is a combination of what "feels" right, looks good, and is the result of a specific pattern that molds to one's body shape. Many variables to consider. :loco:

 

[pawineguy]

When I recently ordered a Langlitz jacket, they actually have three choices for shoulder slope, and adjust the build of the jacket accordingly. Most don't, which as noted above, is why sometimes we get a leather jacket that just nails it for our body type, even though the dimensions seem to mimic other jackets that don't fit as well.

 

[navetsea]

That's an awesome answer, never imagined you could extrapolate such a lot of information from putting on a jacket! I just look in the mirror, if it looks good then i'm happy.

But that was what the jacket maker and I both learned during the fitting process of the prototype, I live in a country where making a tailor made leather jacket from scratch is still a feasible option (if not the only option to get a decent looking leather jacket locally).
before the sleeve rotated forward the jacket body floated around my torso when worn, and once I asked them to rotate the sleeve forward, then whenever I bring my arm down, the front of the jacket presses my torso making a clean looking front.
I can't explain it in word but sleeve rotation on the shoulder especially when the jacket is thick and can't really drape when unzipped/ or when a little bit roomy on the waist even when zipped would make one of these look from the side ( I exaggerated the drawing a little to show it better)

What I want is "C" look

The high underarm thing I learned from another jacket I bought online (not a leather but a waxed thick denim jacket), it was so slim fitting around the sleeve and torso yet have more generous underarm, I can't move my arm at all in it, so I have it altered, at first adding a small biswing, and rotated sleeve (still didn't give enough movement for driving) so I asked them to raise the armpit and that fixed the movement problem, although I have to get use to a very tight and snug underarm cut of the sleeve now.

 

[Cyber Lip]

I like the way Aero does theirs the best. I had a Pegasus that had the straight squared off shoulders, which I was on the fence about...sometimes I thought it looked cool, other times I thought it looked too much like there were shoulder pads in there propping the edges up

 

[tropicalbob]

But that was what the jacket maker and I both learned during the fitting process of the prototype, I live in a country where making a tailor made leather jacket from scratch is still a feasible option (if not the only option to get a decent looking leather jacket locally).
before the sleeve rotated forward the jacket body floated around my torso when worn, and once I asked them to rotate the sleeve forward, then whenever I bring my arm down, the front of the jacket presses my torso making a clean looking front.
I can't explain it in word but sleeve rotation on the shoulder especially when the jacket is thick and can't really drape when unzipped/ or when a little bit roomy on the waist even when zipped would make one of these look from the side ( I exaggerated the drawing a little to show it better)
View attachment 25478
What I want is "C" look

The high underarm thing I learned from another jacket I bought online (not a leather but a waxed thick denim jacket), it was so slim fitting around the sleeve and torso yet have more generous underarm, I can't move my arm at all in it, so I have it altered, at first adding a small biswing, and rotated sleeve (still didn't give enough movement for driving) so I asked them to raise the armpit and that fixed the movement problem, although I have to get use to a very tight and snug underarm cut of the sleeve now.

I really think it's fantastic that you're learning about this by actually creating one. Cheers to you.

 

[dan_t]

I understand the necessity to have a form fitted suit jacket tailored like this, but is it as important with leather?
I ask as I would have assumed that leather, over time, will actually 'mould' to the wearer much more so than a tailored, structured fabric jacket surely.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Ok. Thanks all for the explanation.

 

[navetsea]

@Tropicalbob
thank you.

@dan_t
when you go tailor made surely there is no hurt to be precise, but when buying of the shelf then choose more or less how you choose jeans , jeans also mould to the wearer and feel more comfortably over time yet its cut still decide the overall shape.