Dress Scarves

[Wild Root]

You may be 99.9 % sure that it's not but, I'm 100% it is. You question my expertise on this? You see, an ascot is worn under the shirt! A scarf like we have been talking about would be way to long and bulky under a shirt.

Case and point: My ascot.

They were worn with morning coats and such but, that was before the 1930's. You're talking about Victorian ascots. The ascot has been around for a very long time.

I have tried to wear one of these scarves under as shirt before and I'll tell you, it looks funny and out of place.

You have to trust me on this.

=WR=

 

[BellyTank]

The English one (a la Fox)is a Cravat, Ascot seems to be more of a Stateside useage.

B
T

 

[Wild Root]

I say potato, you say potata, let's call the whole thing off

On many of my vintage ties from the 30's the word "Cravat" is used. We should take into account that words some time change over 60-100 years.

=WR=

 

[BellyTank]

I know that, I have 'Cravat' ties too-Wembley and such...
That was just a kind of trade name- make a tie sound more exotic...

But what an ascot is to you, is a cravat in 'English'.

B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Cravatte being Italian for necktie

bk

 

[BellyTank]

And tie being English for necktie .

Krawatte in German, Slips in Danish....

B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Touch?ɬ©, sir.

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

You question my expertise on this?

Not your expertise, just your knowledge of Edward Fox's wardrobe in 'The Day of the Jackal'

He wears a number of "neck-covering garments" in the movie. And from what i can see (yes, i got the movie from the local library - i'm that determined when i know i'm correct) the amount of fabric around the side and back of the neck precludes the "neck covering garments" from being ascots, which in my experience are very slim (1-2") in the areas that go around the neck. There's a scene where he ties a "neck-covering garment" around his neck, and it most definitely is not an ascot.

In fact, i think we were both wrong :cry: It's neither a scarf, nor an ascot. It's a neckerchief or neckerscarf. A very large (24-30" square) pocket square that can be folded in a certain way to form a rectangular scarf which is then tied around the neck. I have one, and will demonstrate pictorially tomorrow. In the meantime see Flusser's 'Dressing the Man' pp144-145

So there!

bk

 

[Wild Root]

Hmmmm, a large pocket square you say? This is indeed interesting.

Well, ascots did come in a variety of thickness and especially over in the UK. It's bloody cold over there most of the year and well, they need to have thicker "neck coverings" to keep the chill out.

In the photo you supplied, it really looks like what I'm wearing in the photo I supplied so, that's really odd. I have tried to wear a scarf under my shirt and well, it's too bulky and looks rather odd.

Any way, if we're both wrong, I'm ok with that.

=WR=

 

[MudInYerEye]

Edward Fox rules. What a great film DAY OF THE JACKAL is. And that crazy gun...
Oh yes, rayon scarves are quite nice as well.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Well, "large pocket square" was all i could come up with at midnight on a saturday :beer:

It's a large square of silk with rolled edges. My one below is 30" square. My pocket squares are about 13" squares.

And how to fold it?:

et voila

yes, Edward Fox is indeed the man

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

What we have in the UK

Sorry, I seem to have contracted 'BT syndrome'...the urge to correct:

In the UK, we do not have ascots. The only Ascot we have is a famous (horse) racecourse.

What we do have are cravats, neckerchiefs ('chieves?), scarves and mufflers, of various kinds.

Thank you.

Alan

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I think that's where some of the confusion came from earlier. I'd never heard of an ascot 'til i came to the States.

What i have is a neckerchief.

bk

 

[BellyTank]

...just to stir the pot:

I believe a neckerchief, or anything similar is generically referenced as a cravat in UK terms, when worn as such- under the un-buttonned shirt collar.

Ascots are often seen in military use.

B
T

 

[Quigley Brown]

Cravatte being Italian for necktie

bk

Not wanting to do my research...but weren't Croatians visiting France in the 18th century and wearing some sort of neck scarve the origin of cravat?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

On the orders of the Baroness i hit the Oxford English dictionary ...

OED:

(1652 in Hatzfeld) an application of the national name Cravate Croat

1. An article of dress worn around the neck, chiefly by men.

It came into vogue in France in the 17th c. in imitation of the linen scarf worn around the neck by the Croatian mercenaries ... More recently the name was given to a linen or silk handkerchief passed once or twice around the neck outside the shirt collar and bowed in front.

bk