Do top range Bowlers outgun even the best Fedoras?

[Dreispitz]

It is very hard to find a contemporary hatter to come up with a properly made Bowler hat in the genuine old style. Even those hatters, formerly known as sources for excellent Bowlers do no longer meet their old standards, by far.

I meanwhile own some Bowlers and the top range ones are really intricatly made hats in terms of material and craftsmanship.

Gentlemen, here is my question to discuss: What is the better made hat? A top quality Bowler or a top range Fedora?

 

[Edward]

I don't by any means hold myself out as an expert on bowlers - actually, theyre a style for whih I don't much care, personally - but I would consider it to be somewhat erroneous to ask whether they are 'better made' than a fedora, given that the two are radically different animals. Naturally one should hope (though price is no guarantee, of course - caveat emptor!) that a bowler at GBP200 would be a superior hat to a fedora at GBP50, but comparing like for like from a custom hatter, well really, it's apples and oranges. The one thing I would stick my neck out and say is that I should expect a top end bowler to be somewhat pricier than a top end fedora simply because I believe the production of the former to be somewhat more labour intensive, plus there's the likelihood of lesser demand for bowlers these days, which I should imagine would also lead to a higher unit cost of production.

 

[Charlie Huang]

You're comparing apples and pears.

On the subject of bowler quality, there is a marked difference between modern and vintage. Most modern ones created are inferior to the old ones. You can tell by the quality of the felt and how the brim is bound and curled. Certainly, modern brim bindings are so poor that you'd think that the hatters have completely forgotten how to bind and curl a brim properly. IMO, the binding should be hand stitched and the curl should be at the sides and not at the front and back.

I think the best bowlers today are made by Patey's on a bespoke basis. You can specify crown heights, weight and other such important stuff. They are probably the only ones who make a proper bowler by applying many layers of goss and linen on a block, leaving it to cure for months before felting, cutting and trimming. I think the other hatmakers simply shape stiffened felt or reinforce ordinary felt with something to make it hard and stiff. I think that a properly made country-weight bowler could be stood on. It should be that strong and hard. For town-weight, stiffness is not all that important but it must feel like a construction helmet that could survive a brick landing on it nevertheless. Construction workers in ye olde days use to wear bowlers to work!

 

[Charlie Noodles]

I think that a properly made country-weight bowler could be stood on.

Are any current makers game to give you a money-back garuntee on testing that?

 

[Charlie Huang]

No, but it is still possible to make one! They did so in the past so I do not think they cannot do the same today! If they can't, then they are not worthy of being called a hatter!

 

[dhermann1]

How about rigidity? I've read as much as I could on the subject lately, as I'd like to own a good bowler some time. One thing often mentioned is that the rigidity of modern bowlers is less than older ones, because they really aren't used as protective head gear any more. How rigid should a good bowler be? And how about lining? Is an unlined bowler necessarily inferior to a lined one? It would seem that some of the qualities that make a good one need to be felt with the fingers, rather than seen.

 

[mayserwegener]

How about rigidity? I've read as much as I could on the subject lately, as I'd like to own a good bowler some time. One thing often mentioned is that the rigidity of modern bowlers is less than older ones, because they really aren't used as protective head gear any more. How rigid should a good bowler be? And how about lining? Is an unlined bowler necessarily inferior to a lined one? It would seem that some of the qualities that make a good one need to be felt with the fingers, rather than seen.

I have a couple of very well made dress quality vintage bowlers (early 20th Century) and they are rigid (compared to a soft felt fedora) but still can be easily crushed / dented. I would guess the better bowlers had fancy liners but not always. I think felt quality and construction factors are similar to what you see with vintage soft felt fedoras.

 

[feltfan]

They are probably the only ones who make a proper bowler by applying many layers of goss and linen on a block, leaving it to cure for months before felting, cutting and trimming.

Hm,
I own two vintage bowlers, one Mallory and one Stetson (with
the Stetson dating to at least the 20s). They are both quite stiff,
of course, but the felt is also quite thin. No way they could have
been made using layers as Charlie Huang describes. So I suggest
that even in the good old days of bowlers many fine bowlers were
not made quite so strong and thick. They'd be pretty hot on the
head.

That said, I agree that I have yet to see a bowler made by a
current hatter that could be taken seriously. I haven't seen a Patey's bowler.

 

[mayserwegener]

Hm,
I own two vintage bowlers, one Mallory and one Stetson (with
the Stetson dating to at least the 20s). They are both quite stiff,
of course, but the felt is also quite thin. No way they could have
been made using layers as Charlie Huang describes. So I suggest
that even in the good old days of bowlers many fine bowlers were
not made quite so strong and thick. They'd be pretty hot on the
head.

Both of mine have the same qualities you mention. One dating back to 1906.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Those are town bowlers. Country bowlers are hard as hell so they don't get damaged when bounding along the country on horseback.

It doesn't matter whether it is lined or not, so as long as it is sufficently stiff. If you knock your fingers on it, it should create a sound like tapping on pingpong ball and not a thud. If you push the felt, it should have no give. I've seen a few bowlers that have tiny holes in them for ventilation!

Patey's bowlers:

http://www.pateyhats.com/?cat=11

 

[Barrelhouse]

Certainly, modern brim bindings are so poor that you'd think that the hatters have completely forgotten how to bind and curl a brim properly. IMO, the binding should be hand stitched and the curl should be at the sides and not at the front and back.

DITTO

 

[mayserwegener]

Those are town bowlers. Country bowlers are hard as hell so they don't get damaged when bounding along the country on horseback.

It doesn't matter whether it is lined or not, so as long as it is sufficently stiff. If you knock your fingers on it, it should create a sound like tapping on pingpong ball and not a thud. If you push the felt, it should have no give. I've seen a few bowlers that have tiny holes in them for ventilation!

Patey's bowlers:

http://www.pateyhats.com/?cat=11

"For town-weight, stiffness is not all that important but it must feel like a construction helmet that could survive a brick landing on it nevertheless. Construction workers in ye olde days use to wear bowlers to work!"

This isn't how I would describe my vintage town dress bowlers. They are rigid (see finger tapping a pin pong ball sound) but made of thin/med felt. They certainly do not feel like they could survive a brick landing on them.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

And do top range cups outgun even the best drinking glasses?






.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Gentlemen, here is my question to discuss: What is the better made hat? A top quality Bowler or a top range Fedora?

Here's my feeble attempt to answer Dreispitz's question.

Comparing them as a hat to a hat, from the same maker, I would say that their quality is identical.

However, comparing them to vintage, the snap brim hat wins, hands down. I have seen no American hatter or manufacturer that has successfully duplicated the classic derby (I have very little knowledge of bowler makers on the other side of the Pond). As many have pointed out, the felt isn't thin enough. I equate thumping a Derby top to the head of a drum. The curling is nowhere near the same, nor is the binding.

Part of this is that a highly-shellacked felt is difficult to work, which is why American manufacturers switched to machine presses to form the crowns in the early part of the 20th century.

I have no idea how they felted the crowns so thin, as it seems to me they would be pouncing into the core of the felt at that point, but it's just as tightly felted as the rest of the hat.

I've wanted to try my hand at making one for a while, but I haven't found the right block. I'd also probably have to special order a run of felt with the right amount of shellac, and that's too cost prohibitive. I haven't seen the right binding ribbon, either.

Brad

 

[Charlie Huang]

My bowler brim is bound exactly like my topper but with cotton-rayon grosgrain.

 

[Matt Deckard]

It's that cotton Rayon Grosgrain that makes the difference. Most modern ribbons just melt when hit with an iron while the hatter tries to curl the brim.

 

[mayserwegener]

I am not sure of the type of material but I haven't seen anything that matches it today (binding or curl work). By the way this also applies to Homburgs.

 

[besdor]

Homburgs are much easier to find today than bowlers. Borsalino , Cervo Mayser and Biltmore still make a decent homburg. The problem is there is little demand for them outside of the Orthodox Jewish market and the black market.
We just received a new Dobbs homburg made in a suede finish that is quite nice.
I've always wondered what Hatco did with all of their old forms from Philadelphia. They made fantastic derbies.


Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

 

[dhermann1]

What I find interesting is that it seems that there are NO 'City" style bowlers available at all any more, as opposed to the squarer crowned "Country" style. If you look at any Shorpy.com images from around 1905 or so, you'll see lots of bowlers with a much more rounded top. I've also seen pics of Winston Churchill sporting a bowler with a squarer tiop than anything I've ever seen as well.

 

[mayserwegener]

Homburgs are much easier to find today than bowlers. Borsalino , Cervo Mayser and Biltmore still make a decent homburg. The problem is there is little demand for them outside of the Orthodox Jewish market and the black market.
We just received a new Dobbs homburg made in a suede finish that is quite nice.
I've always wondered what Hatco did with all of their old forms from Philadelphia. They made fantastic derbies.


Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

My point was regarding Homburg curl and binding. I haven't seen a modern Homburg that can match vintage regarding curl and binding. The early 60s maybe a bit later is where it ended IMHO.