Do hats really need a liner?

[MAB1]

I take mine out. They usually come loose anyway. But, I don't throw them away.

 

[jamespowers]

I've seen this material in military hats, and it is described in my 1940 Bailey's catalog as, "Fish Skin". Seems to be some sort of breathable material,... but actual fish skin??? Sounds unlikely, but then again,...[huh]
Does anyone know just exactly what this stuff was?

I have heard it described also as oilskin but I always thought it was just texturized plastic. [huh]

 

[Feraud]

So it really was the actual skin from some sort of fish?

I doubt it.

 

[Feraud]

Here is another example of the plastic/cloth/fishskin cap.
It may be hard to make out but there is a lining in front of the Lee logo.
I would describe the material as a cloth like plastic textured something or other.

Not to be confused with a clear plastic cap like this, which is cracked and needs some tlc.

 

[hatlinerman]

Reply to Do You Need a Liner?

Hi Everyone--

I am new to the forum.

Most liners today are made from a synthetic--acetate. It resembles rayon.In years past, rayon and silk were used also.

The plastic in the top of the lining was there to protect hair oils and hair creams from seeping into the hat itself.

Today, the plastic is used as a "dress up" along with piping.

Hope this helps.

 

[Garrett]

If you wanna paint and insist on wearin a hat USE A BALL CAP! No need to ruin a fedora.

 

[carter]

If you wanna paint and insist on wearin a hat USE A BALL CAP! No need to ruin a fedora.

Exactly what I was thinking. Or a painter's cap.
I wouldn't remove the liner from a vintage hat unless it was already destroyed. I'd hang on to it if I did remove it.

 

[jimmy the lid]

I have heard it described also as oilskin but I always thought it was just texturized plastic. [huh]

Based upon the use of this term in a vintage Mallory ad, I think that this material might have been referred to as "oil silk."

Cheers,
JtL

 

[WideBrimm]

If you wanna paint and insist on wearin a hat USE A BALL CAP! No need to ruin a fedora.

Agreed! I've got a dirty filthy ball cap for when I stick my head under the hood of a car. I wouldn't dream of wearing a fedora for that , not even a sweaty one.

One option to avoid ripping out a plastic liner is to run down to the local fabric store and buy a package of sticky felt. Cut out a piece and stick it in place. Its easy to insert & remove. I've used it for several hats without liners, to prevent the dreaded sweat from going through the felt. Seems to work.

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

Going back to the original question ..."Is there any reason NOT to remove the liner"... well, I have a few hats wherefrom the liner been removed, by myself I admit.
These hats have not suffered in the least from sweat or whatever. So, at first sight it seems, yes, a liner may be removed without inordinate chances of physical damage to the felt. "Of course I keep my hats clean"; which in reality doesn't mean more than to say that these hats have not been worn for years and years on end riding horses or on top of a tractor or otherwise working up a thorough sweat: I wear hats sitting in a train or, at best, walking outside, in a mostly moderate climate. And, yes, I brush my hats regularly.
On the other hand, though, I have identical hats, one with the original liner, the other without. Guess which I like best! Gone the beautiful Borsalino logo! Another of my hats has a brilliant fuchsia-pink liner with (real) vintage Stetson logo. I would be most sorry if that liner were lost...
But, from a purely technical point of view, liners serve (almost) no practical purpose, they don't.
It all boils down to what you expect from your hat, and the kind of person you are.

 

[jamespowers]

Based upon the use of this term in a vintage Mallory ad, I think that this material might have been referred to as "oil silk."

Cheers,
JtL

Oil silk would be a good term. Kind of makes more sense than plastic too.

 

[carter]

Oil silk would be a good term. Kind of makes more sense than plastic too.

Leslie N. Daniels patented Oil Silk as a "Hat Protector" in February of 1920. I have been unable to locate further information on Daniels.

@{patent:1330582,
title = "Hat-protector",
number = "1330582",
author = "Daniels, Leslie N.",
year = "1920",
month = "February",
Country = "United States"

"http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1330582.html"
This is the earliest Patent at the US Patent Office with this name.
There are 93 other patents tied to Hat Protector.

 

[Woodfluter]

Have to add...

Of the four Akubras I own, I've removed the liner on three of them. But carefully! They insist on using glue, and a very gentle but persistent tugging action accompanied by discreet use of a very sharp knife is in order to prevent damage to the felt.

Wouldn't do that with any of my vintage lids I must say.

However, all this leads to the question I'd like to pose: Why are liners sewn or glued in at all? I found that they can be removed for warmer weather, then re-inserted when cooler weather arrives, tucked in under the sweatband, and they stay in place very nicely. Unless you deliberately pulled on one, or turned the sweatband back to inspect it, you'd never know they weren't attached. In other words, they seem to stay in place without problems sans stitches or glue guns.

So why have manufacturers and one-off makers hewn to the the tradition of the firmly affixed liner? To make sure you know who made the hat? Just wondering since the compelling rationale seems lacking.

- Bill

 

[Topper]

Simple "No" - not always.


Some hats due to climate were not traditionally made with liners. If you ever see the inside of Churchill's Cambridge bowler ( which he personally liked to call a "bowker")

http://cwr.iwm.org.uk/server/show/conMediaFile.71980
( with this particular bowler - he had many!)

It does not have a liner, and the hatters stamp is on the Leather sweatband. This would lead it to believe it is called Summer Bowler, or Summer hat. Without a liner to keep one cooler in the hotter times.

Though when linings are uses the have many different formats and preferences - On some expensive hats traditionally an "oil silk" lining can be used - And still is - The Herbert Johnson Military caps I retail still use it.

 

[jimmy the lid]

However, all this leads to the question I'd like to pose: Why are liners sewn or glued in at all? I found that they can be removed for warmer weather, then re-inserted when cooler weather arrives, tucked in under the sweatband, and they stay in place very nicely. Unless you deliberately pulled on one, or turned the sweatband back to inspect it, you'd never know they weren't attached. In other words, they seem to stay in place without problems sans stitches or glue guns.

I'm with you, Bill. It's been my experience that liners seem to stay in place just fine on their own, without stitching or glue.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Lefty]

Based upon that particular patent number, I don't think it's quite what you think it is. It will, however, protect a hat pretty well.
click

Leslie N. Daniels patented Oil Silk as a "Hat Protector" in February of 1920. I have been unable to locate further information on Daniels.

@{patent:1330582,
title = "Hat-protector",
number = "1330582",
author = "Daniels, Leslie N.",
year = "1920",
month = "February",
Country = "United States"

"http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1330582.html"
This is the earliest Patent at the US Patent Office with this name.
There are 93 other patents tied to Hat Protector.

 

[carter]

lol lol lol lol lol

Lefty, It definitely isn't. Thanks for setting me straight. :eusa_doh:

 

[jamespowers]

I wonder if that is made of oilsilk.

 

[JeffR]

I've seen this material in military hats, and it is described in my 1940 Bailey's catalog as, "Fish Skin". Seems to be some sort of breathable material,... but actual fish skin??? Sounds unlikely, but then again,...[huh]
Does anyone know just exactly what this stuff was?

Hi All,

jamespowers - There is a very thin, supple, translucent material that's used for the pads on flutes called "fish skin." Also called "gold beater's skin", it's made from the intestinal lining of pigs or cows. It's fairly tough, so a thicker version could be used for hat liners, and would look much like what you're describing.

Cheers,
Jeff

 

[Pilgrim]

I don't believe liners are necessary. My charcoal Stetson Stratoliner never had one, so clearly reputable manufacturers did not always use them. So for me, the baseline is: not needed.

BUT - that also depends on how the hat is worn.

I for one am not and never have been a fan of anything greasy on my hair - so for me, pomade is not an issue. It does seem reasonable to me that if one used an oily hair dressing which attracts soil or any kind of colored hair dressing, it would make perfect sense in THAT case to have a liner in the hat to protect the felt. I use a dab of hair gel, and there's no way that's going to create a problem inside a hat.

I've had the Greely Hatworks replace a badly torn liner in a different Stratoliner that did originally come with a liner...mainly because I wanted to preserve the original look. But I wouldn't have needed to - just personal choice.

I also agree that I have seen liners with and without the oval plastic insert in the top center - but I've never attributed the plastic to any particular time period, as I've seen it in hats of quite different decades, including a homburg which I thought was probably 30's.

Here's the liner and insert in my new Mallory: