Did Schott buy Shinki? Another Shinki STYLE: P617H

[MickeyPunch]

I keep reading in FL that a lot of makers have bad patterns, especially japanese ones but also Aero and others. Seemingly only Vanson and a couple others are good in this regard. Why is this? Is it because the FL crowd favours a specific fit? Are most makers incompetent in pattern making and are unable to make a good one?

I know nothing about pattern making but even though a jacket is a relatively complex 3D shape and I do think that creating a pattern from scratch must involve a lot of trial an error, in the end it’s composed of a bunch of 2D panels so I (perhaps naively) think that anyone making jackets for a living should be able to simply rip off a pattern from some other maker. Some are already copying designs anyway (even from brands that are still alive, see FCL and Addict ripping off LL designs), which is a much more apparent thing.

So why are they not doing that?

PS: it’s funny that I discovered in FL that Vanson is great at patterns because my only prior exposure to them was years ago when Thurston did some special design in StyleForum called the Daredevil which IIRC was based on some previous collab between Vanson and a japanese designer called Junya Watanabe. The whole thing was a disaster as the jacket had an enormous collar gap. I don’t know who was the culprit for the **** up, if Vanson, Thurston or the original collab with Junya, although I think the latter didn’t have that issue.

PS2: since I mentioned LL above I was kinda expecting them to be more popular over here but that doesn’t seem to be the case, I wonder why?

 

[Aloysius]

I keep reading in FL that a lot of makers have bad patterns, especially japanese ones but also Aero and others. Seemingly only Vanson and a couple others are good in this regard. Why is this? Is it because the FL crowd favours a specific fit? Are most makers incompetent in pattern making and are unable to make a good one?

I went into this in depth in another post (possibly in this thread), bringing up elements like pattern specialists, the benefits of a continuously honed pattern (like the core collections at longstanding firms like Schott and Vanson) vs one-offs.

Pattering/cutting is an art and science in its own right, and you can sew for years without actually learning or understanding that side because they are complementary skills but not the same one.

I made a thread about how patterning works but I don't think anyone looked at it.

 

[JackBroChill]

PS2: since I mentioned LL above I was kinda expecting them to be more popular over here but that doesn’t seem to be the case, I wonder why?

I've wondered this myself! Particularly with how popular they seem to be in Japan and for having a pretty distinct/different look than the dozens of other double rider models seen here.

 

[MickeyPunch]

I went into this in depth in another post (possibly in this thread), bringing up elements like pattern specialists, the benefits of a continuously honed pattern (like the core collections at longstanding firms like Schott and Vanson) vs one-offs.

Pattering/cutting is an art and science in its own right, and you can sew for years without actually learning or understanding that side because they are complementary skills but not the same one.

I made a thread about how patterning works but I don't think anyone looked at it.

Yep as I said I can understand how developing a pattern from scratch can be difficult, but is it really that hard to rip off a good one by getting a jacket and taking it apart? Some/most of those “bad pattern” brands shamelessly steal other companies designs, why not the pattern?

 

[Aloysius]

I've wondered this myself! Particularly with how popular they seem to be in Japan and for having a pretty distinct/different look than the dozens of other double rider models seen here.

LL is beloved here.

It's just that they're too expensive for people to buy as impulse purchases. And while we do have a phenomenon of people coming here having dropped a fortune on a leather jacket that doesn't fit, that's usually one from a Japanese brand they learned about through the raw denim community or advertorial websites.


LL either gets enthusiasts about the jackets or people who are into the British Rocker look.

 

[Aloysius]

Yep as I said I can understand how developing a pattern from scratch can be difficult, but is it really that hard to rip off a good one by getting a jacket and taking it apart? Some/most of those “bad pattern” brands shamelessly steal other companies designs, why not the pattern?

Even though when you have an original you have some kind of basis, it takes a lot of time, research, and careful work to reproduce and grade patterns based on originals. If you ask Ken from Aero, John from Good Wear, Gary from Eastman, etc or even our own Regius they'll all tell you this.

In a lot of cases while the pattern may be bad by tailoring standards, that isn't what the brand is going for. The current (not previous) RMC for a while was chasing that really skinny fit that was fashionable in the early 2010s and only just revised the pattern of the J-24 away from that. The newer brands go for a newer trend in Japan, which is a super tight chest and forearm, with a baggy waist and lower arm. Sometimes this results in something that looks merely off, sometimes it results in a full on abomination. But again, they're not doing it by accident. This is a deliberate styling decision and I don't fault them for it even though the result isn't for me.

Like I have an RRL jacket that has perfect vintage details but is way too short to match that short jacket trend, so it doesn't work on me. (And personally I think that kind of thing is incoherent with the vintage styling details, but I assume these companies did some market research!) Planning on having one of our TFL friends who has similar style but a shorter build take a look at it to see if it fits him because he'd look great in it.

In other cases, the people who start a brand do not have a background in pattern drafting and so they are still very much developing the eye and hand for it. Given the stiff nature of leather and impossibility of alteration, it's not a forgiving medium.

 

[Kuro]

I accept the following...

Fashion.
Fit.
Purpose.

I think you get to pick two when it is off the rack or made from a fixed pattern. And your body type vs manufacturer pattern will color your perception of fit or fashion. Sometimes where you wear your belt can have an impact...

So this creates a lot of variables. Not everyone looks good in a 1:1 vintage reproduction. (See body shape.) Not everyone sees the benefit of a double rider with a lot of mobility in the arms and shoulders and room for a layer as a good fit, style wise. (See purpose.)

YMMV.

 

[Tom71]

So I actually ordered one...

@MattieXMoto and @JackBroChill, you can safely consider yourself to be enablers. Your fit-photos were just too convincing to pass on that jacket...

I picked it up today at the regional FedEx hub. Schott were superfast, FedEx were superfast - but only in trying to deliver once and without leaving a note. Endless "discussions" with a ChatBot AND the customer claims form AND a "live-chat" later, I finally managed to speak to some human intel and decided to make the one-hour-drive to the facility.

Here´s my take:

The leather is NICE! Could well be the same Shinki-variant that I have on my TMC "Durable"-repro. Very shiny, very nicely smelling, with an appropriate heft. It´s pretty soft, so a bit more rigidness at day one would have been a bonus.
All in all, en par with the 613SH, which will be my main focus for comparison. A bit more luxurious, a bit less stiff. No real winner here.

Fit is good for me in size "L". It´s a bit shorter than the 613SH (size 44), with a wider hem, but the other measurements are in the same ballpark. I certainly don´t miss the half inch less P2P. This one has an "action back", so movement is much better than with the 613SH. Given that I was really apprehensive about size and fit, I couldn´t be happier.

There are things, I am not really sold on: Some have mentioned the hidden collar snaps. For me it´s the overall lack of "bling-bling": The zippers are a bit dulled, there is neither a "D", nor a coin-pocket, no visible collar snaps. There is not really a lot going on visually, while a Perfecto needs to be a "loud" jacket to an extent, IMO.
The main zip has a double pull, so it can be operated both ways. What is a bonus on some jackets is just absurd on a jacket that´s not even 25" long. Just makes zipping up more fiddly.
The thing I always loathe with a passion: no full gussets under the sleeve-zips but just silly pieces of leather that don´t look good and are grabby when putting the jacket on. Why would one do that...?

Overall, the jacket is nice, uncomplicated and versatile. It´s also oddly "undecided" in that it lacks all the features of a classic Perfecto (V-Shape being the most striking missing feature, epaulettes, belt).

Does it really have a place next to the 613SH and my "Durable"-repro? It has - as of now. I will try it out with multiple layerings over the festive time. It´s certainly more versatile than the 613SH (better layering) and certainly more so than the TMC (noticeably longer).

Thanks for reading; first snaps (indoor lighting at dusk, so no feast for the eye) in the next post.

 

[Tom71]

 

[ton312]

View attachment 664776 View attachment 664777 View attachment 664778

This is positively brilliant and looks spot on PERFECT!

 

[Rgcards]

I love the look on you. Perfect fit

 

[Zoro]

I think it looks good! Could you add comparison fit with your 613SH if it's not a bother?

Also, did this come from US? Did you have to face custom charges? (Perhaps they are still to come as FedEx often charge them after delivery).

 

[Tom71]

This is positively brilliant and looks spot on PERFECT!

Thanks much! High praise from the Lord of Cool!!

 

[Tom71]

I love the look on you. Perfect fit

Thank you. Yes, the fit is good.

 

[Tom71]

I think it looks good! Could you add comparison fit with your 613SH if it's not a bother?

Also, did this come from US? Did you have to face custom charges? (Perhaps they are still to come as FedEx often charge them after delivery).

Thank you! I will track down a picture with the 613SH.

Yes, from the US. Ordered last Monday, so pretty fast delivery. I had to pay customs/VAT upon pick-up. Not a big issue, but I prefer the DHL-way, where you can pay upfront via electronic payment.

 

[Tom71]

Here’s the 613SH.

I can do a proper side-by-side when I have a minute. Interested how this goes down myself.

 

[Marc mndt]

@Tom71 wow that's a great looking jacket. Congrats.

Thanks for the detailed writeup and pics.

Fit is good for me in size "L". It´s a bit shorter than the 613SH (size 44), with a wider hem

To me that's a good thing, the jacket being shorter. A lot of Schott's recent repro's look too long for the style, elongated. Not this one.

From the back I do notice the wider hem, was the jacket zipped or unzipped when that pic was taken? I think this jacket might benefit from a nice belt. One of those standard Pee-Jay belts would be perfect. Here's one currently on eBay :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1456707281...w9G3PEsR_G&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

The thing I always loathe with a passion: no full gussets under the sleeve-zips but just silly pieces of leather that don´t look good and are grabby when putting the jacket on. Why would one do that...?

Maybe they chose to go with a half open gussets because of the thick and stiff Shinki, a full gusset would have been bulky?

This half open gussets design was standard on Leathertogs jackets, my Kit Karsons have it too. I actually appreciate the non-bulkiness of the design.

 

[Tom71]

@Tom71 wow that's a great looking jacket. Congrats.

Thanks for the writeup and for pics.


To me that's a good thing, the jacket being shorter. A lot of Schott's latest repro's look to long for the style, elongated. Not this one.

From the back I do notice the wider hem, did you have the jacket zipped or unzipped when that pic was taken? I think this jacket might benefit from a nice belt. Onenof those standard Pee-Jay belts would be perfect. Here's one currently on eBay :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1456707281...w9G3PEsR_G&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Maybe they chose to go with a half open gussets because of the thick and stiff Shinki, a full gusset would have been bulky?

This half open gussets design was standard on Leathertogs jackets, my Kit Karsons have it too. I actually appreciate the non-bulkiness of the design.
View attachment 664793

Thanks, Marc!

Re lenght, I am with you. A Cross-zip needs to reasonably short. I have come to find that my sweet-spot is 25" (as in my 613SH). This one is marginally shorter (24,75"), but not much turns on that. I always aim to have a Longsleeve/Jumper/Sweatshirt "more or less" covered by the jacket, and that is the case here.

The picture from the back is unzipped. I will do proper comparison photos (same time, same layering, same light) when I find the time. The hem is 22,4", which is a good thing for a best-ager with some weight-flutuations, but in any event pretty generous for size 42/44.

Open gussets are purely a question of personal preference, I guess. I don´t really count "bulk" as a reason. The 613SH is not much thinner but much stiffer; other manufacturers cope with the bulk of CXL FQHH, Competition Weight and other hides without issue.

I am sitting at my desk with the jacket on, as I type (don´t we all...) and enjoy it...

 

[JackBroChill]

@Tom71 Looks like an ace fit!

Pretty much concur with everything you've said. I think I'm going down a different route for my first proper double rider but the leather is gorgeous and something about the jacket does keep pulling me back in....but I will say the half gusset feature really drove me nuts as well considering every other model they had came with proper ones. And from what I recall the leather in the gusset feels different than the shinki so I don't know if the thickness was the issue (maybe just a simple cost saving measure but idk).

Looking forward to seeing how it ages!

 

[MickeyPunch]

To me the lack of “bling bling” is precisely the thing I like about this jacket; I’d make it even simpler, the belt loops with no belt look out of place to me, my only black cross zip is even simpler.