Sorry I meant lost worlds j23, silly but important typo lol.
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Did Schott buy Shinki? Another Shinki STYLE: P617H
- Thread starter MattieXMoto
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JackBroChill
Familiar Face
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Would love to see the cafe racer!
JackBroChill
Familiar Face
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With the Eastman roadster being the same exact price as this model I'm wondering why not just go with that....but I am still mixed on whether I prefer a D-pocket design to a perfecto. Perfecto feels ever so slightly easier to wear.
Madhouse27
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The Perfecto has two hand pockets. I never really appreciated this feature until I got a jacket with only one lol. Comparing the two that I have, the Schott horsehide is thicker, heavier, blacker, grainier and shinier than the Eastman’s lighter weight, matte hide. The Schott feels pretty indestructible (which is why I ride in it) and has been fairly resistant to wear, break-in etc. I have a size 44 in both and prefer the ELMC pattern to that of the 613sh. The Roadstar has a little more room in the shoulders and it’s certainly more V shaped.. The horsehide is more forgiving and will break in and show wear much faster than the Schott. I’d have trouble picking between the two if I could only keep one. That said, I’ve had quite a few jackets come and go. Through it all, some variant of Schott Perfecto has usually been my #1 jacket.
JackBroChill
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I've never owned a D-pocket but I must say the single pocket thing feels like a much more annoying 'feature' than I ever see brought up. So I can't say I'm surprised to hear that!
But yeah, the pattern on the roadster seems pretty top notch (love how sloped the shoulder seem, the shorter body, and the more 'deflated' epaulets) but I do like the idea of having a good ol' Schott for a double rider. Just wish those damn collar snaps were visible, but alas.
Jack , I have the original shinki schott and the 628 h as well as the Eastman. In my opinion there is no comparison, the schotts are much nicer. I did have a stitch failure at the armpit on thee first but it was not a leather tear and was fixed by Schott. Some people here just can't accept Schott as a quality jacket. If the stitching on either of my himel jackets showed up on a schott it would be considered proof of the poor quality of the maker. But for a himel it's just the idiosyncrasies of the being hand made. Schotts are not custom made, the patterns need to have allowances for variations in human builds, nevertheless they manage to nail it on most of their patterns, even while trying to take into account that not everyone shared the fedora lounge archetype of what a jacket should look like. But if himel creates a monstrosity it's because the buyer wears skinny jeans and therefore must be a moron.
Marc mndt
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One huge difference between ELMC and Schott: water resistance. Eastman's Victoria horsehide sucks up water like a sponge whereas the Shinki Schott uses has a water repellent topcoat.
That's interesting, as someone who has lived in rainy places all his life, I was starting to flat out discard Shinki and any veg tan having read they soak water.
Do you know how long would the water repellent topcoat last? Is this something common in other manufacturers? Can it be reapplied and, if so, would that be something you can do or would it need to be sent to Schott? Lot of questions, thanks in advance
Marc mndt
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Shinki is just the name of the tannery, a tannery that produces different kinds of leathers.
Their full and semi aniline leathers (no topcoat / transparent topcoat) suck up water like a sponge, just like (almost) all full aniline leathers do. Their combination tanned leathers will probably be as water resistant as CXL (assumption). Some of their pigment dyed leathers are what I call water repellent as they keep me dry for about half an hour though moderate rainfall. It depends on the thickness of the topcoat though, some pigment dyed leathers perform better than others.
dudewuttheheck
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So you're admitting you've had quality issues with a Schott jacket.
I've seen Himel create bad jackets and I have called them bad jackets. I just don't think that the jacket Marc posted was a bad jacket. The Imperial he posted was awful. No doubt about that.
I'll be posting more official reviews of my Himel jacket and the stitching errors will absolutely be discussed. I haven't made any excuses for them and I did not call them idiosyncrasies of being hand made. I despise that excuse for poor construction. The best products I own are the most hand made so that argument is idiotic for anyone to make.
I'm just not talking about the stitching errors here because I'm happy about the fit. I'll discuss it in the future.
I don't think Schott isn't a solid jacket. I don't think they're as good as many people on this forum think they are and I have a major issue eith them trying to falsely take credit for jackets they didn't make, but they make a good enough jacket.
Also, next time please don't be so passive aggressive. Just tag me and be more up front. I would appreciate that much more.
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I've had issues with himel, aero, and real McCoy too. Don't pick and choose one sentence. I have 71 leather jackets and 15 from schott and one had a minor issue.The issue I had with my schoot was one loose stitch that created a 5 mm gap under the armpit. It was rectified for free. If anything that reflects better than denying there is a problem and attacking your customers .
Im not a schott fanboy per se, I just think you get a good product at a fair price. All companies need to stay in business, and that means offering products that sell. If schott is trying to penetrate the market that normally shops at self edge or rivet and hide, more power to them. Acting like they make an inferior product is condescending and specious. Vanson makes a great product which I usually cheaper, they have their market and they do a great job,but they aren't growing their offerings and that's a risk they are taking. Throwing around terms like best or better without defining your criteria is not helpful. Insulting another person's taste or judgement based on a single picture is rude, especially from someone who makes style decisions that many would find unusual
Im not a schott fanboy per se, I just think you get a good product at a fair price. All companies need to stay in business, and that means offering products that sell. If schott is trying to penetrate the market that normally shops at self edge or rivet and hide, more power to them. Acting like they make an inferior product is condescending and specious. Vanson makes a great product which I usually cheaper, they have their market and they do a great job,but they aren't growing their offerings and that's a risk they are taking. Throwing around terms like best or better without defining your criteria is not helpful. Insulting another person's taste or judgement based on a single picture is rude, especially from someone who makes style decisions that many would find unusual
dudewuttheheck
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It is excellent that Schott repaired the jacket. No doubt about that. I also was not only picking ingredients and choosing one sentence. I replied to every aspect of your post
I never said that it's bad for Schott to try to tap into that market at all. I've seen them already do it extremely successfully with 3Sixteen so I know they can do it. My only point was that their previous Shinki aviator jacket had a poor pattern based on my experience of trying a few of them on. Also, I have given Schott many tries. I tried those jackets on because I was interested in buying it if it fit well. Unfortunately it did not.
I agree that Vanson not expanding their market more is a bit of a risk. The only collabs I've seen them do are with Butterscotch and those are all way too long and I'm not a fan of any of them. I actually think @Mrfrown 's jacket with them is a good starting point for them.
To be fair, I should not be insulting someone's style on a forum without that person even being aware. That was a mistake on my part. That said, it was not based on one single photo only. My point was that the customer clearly wanted all his clothing to fit very tightly on him and that is why I believe it was a poor example to use against Himel. Again, I'm not saying Himel is infallible. He is far from that. I just think their are better examples to use to show his mistakes. That Imperial being one and that awful Freenote jacket that I think @Aloysius brought up a while back.
Still, I agree I should not be blindly insulting someone's style choices especially when they don't have the chance to reply back. I could have said that better.
El Marro
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It’s funny to me that several people have mentioned this point as a negative when I see it as an overwhelming positive. For one, this is how Cal Leathers builds their jackets and they make one of the finest cross zips out there. And I also feel like it contributes to the classic understated vibe that makes this jacket feel like an earlier, simpler iteration of the Perfecto.
dudewuttheheck
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Yeah I was going to say that I agree with this. I actually really like the overall design of this new jacket as I did with their Shinki aviator from a year or so back. I plan on going to try it on later this week. It will probably be too long for me like every modern jacket, but I still want to give it a go.
There is absolutely zero reason for Vanson to enter into the “heritage workwear/ pretend biker scene” and that’s exactly why they don’t do it. Why would they? They build tools for actual riders, not IG posts. You don’t wrap the handle of a sledgehammer in shell cordovan. The notion is ridiculous to me. I’m sure they’ll take your money and do whatever you want with it. But as a company there is no need whatsoever to enter the super niche market found almost exclusively buried under booty shaking IG onlyfans accounts.
They will never be hurt by avoiding this market, in fact they could ONLY be hurt by joining it. While Schott may technically still be considered a true riders jacket, it’s considerably less so any Vanson I’ve ever owned. They are more a fashion brand IMO. There are plenty of riders buying their gear to ride. That is all they need to worry about. The fashion side is an unimportant sidebar to the companies bedrock purpose.
They will never be hurt by avoiding this market, in fact they could ONLY be hurt by joining it. While Schott may technically still be considered a true riders jacket, it’s considerably less so any Vanson I’ve ever owned. They are more a fashion brand IMO. There are plenty of riders buying their gear to ride. That is all they need to worry about. The fashion side is an unimportant sidebar to the companies bedrock purpose.
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dudewuttheheck
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I was waiting for this response. If they're doing well and they continue to do well financially, then they don't need to. I don't know what their financial situation is.
I know not of these "bootyshaking ig accounts" of which you speak.
I have revealed too much about the contents of my explore landing page.
There are certain things that frustrate me with all of the "special" Schott jackets.
Like they come in S/M/L sizing rather than numbered, which means that except for M–which is usually graded as a 40–they are all in between sizes. (Which might be great for a someone who's a 43 or something, not so great for the rest of us.) I kind of understand why they'd do this, given most of those special jackets are using a leather they're ordering in smaller batches and so maybe there's less chance of loss than if they made a whole bunch of 52s or 34s or something, but it's a drawback.
I really liked the aviator as well, more so than most people here, though I wish it had side buckles to draw in the half belt. (In fairness, the original they modeled it on might not have so maybe they were just being accurate). I think that's a good direction for these in general because half belts don't demand dialing in the specific size quite in the way a cafe racer or cross zip MC jacket require, because if anything they look better (and more period accurate) when slightly big and cinched a bit at the waist.
On the more positive side, I see them playing around with zippers iteratively. Their zippers are Conmar/Ideal anyway but now they've been putting some Conmar-branded ones which add to the vintage look. I thought the Diamond pulls ones were a little long (that's nitpicking I know and they don't control which vintage style pulls Conmar/Ideal produces) though really nice and sturdy. With this jacket they're doing bell-pull Conmars, which is what I'd like to see.
dudewuttheheck
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Yours sounds much more interesting than mineI have revealed too much about the contents of my explore landing page.
Yeah the side cinch thing was my biggest design complaint. I was super happy to see the Conmar branded zippers on the new model. I still don't like the look of 2 way zippers, but I can't have it all.
Dude I wasn't targeting you personally in the beginning. I was actually one of the first people to raise some doubts a bout hinel because of the wonky stitching on my own jacket. I brought it up on this forum, initially without revealing the brand because I didn't want to deride any one specifically. I got peer pressured intoo revealing the brand, and frankly kind of regret starting that whole thing. Because I like my himel jacket. But it not better made than my shinki schotts.
I think there are a number of people, not all but some, who think that the the Japanese brands are "better" quality than companies like Scott, vanson or even aero. I disagree. They are certainly more expensive. But even disregarding price I don't see them as inherently more desirable. My Mulholland is probably the worst pattern I own. For some reason this was the catch of the day for a while, and I coughed up 3 grand based on the enthusiasm I found here. But it was a badly fitting pattern of on on old cal. So even though the stitching is f very precise, it's a lousy jacket. I have a Simmons bolt I got from Mr frown . Superior in every way except stitch count. My point is that Schott and others make nice products, and given similar materials can be just as nice as any of the small repro brands. They have compromises, but they are brand decisions, not quality decisions. Freewheelers does the some, as someone 6'2 200 pounds, I can tell you that they are not trying hard to design for me. If schott used the same stitching as free wheelers they would probably sell 1 % more jackets. Most people who buy a leather jacket don't look that closely. It wouldn't make the jackets more durable, or fit better or drape better, so why change what they have been doing for 100 years? It's not that they're consciously making lower quality, it's just not how they, or I define quality.
Ton in regards to vanson, they do what they do very well. They don't really make fashion jackets, not that their jackets are unfashionable, but they aren't shooting for that market. Schott clearly is making some effort in that regard and I think that just because they don't have the cachet of real McCoys doesn't mean that if judged without bias ,that a schott isn't superior. I prefer my 628h to my mobster, although very different styles. Not saying vansin should or shld t seek out that market. Just saying if they did I bet they could do as good a job as the Japanese
I think there are a number of people, not all but some, who think that the the Japanese brands are "better" quality than companies like Scott, vanson or even aero. I disagree. They are certainly more expensive. But even disregarding price I don't see them as inherently more desirable. My Mulholland is probably the worst pattern I own. For some reason this was the catch of the day for a while, and I coughed up 3 grand based on the enthusiasm I found here. But it was a badly fitting pattern of on on old cal. So even though the stitching is f very precise, it's a lousy jacket. I have a Simmons bolt I got from Mr frown . Superior in every way except stitch count. My point is that Schott and others make nice products, and given similar materials can be just as nice as any of the small repro brands. They have compromises, but they are brand decisions, not quality decisions. Freewheelers does the some, as someone 6'2 200 pounds, I can tell you that they are not trying hard to design for me. If schott used the same stitching as free wheelers they would probably sell 1 % more jackets. Most people who buy a leather jacket don't look that closely. It wouldn't make the jackets more durable, or fit better or drape better, so why change what they have been doing for 100 years? It's not that they're consciously making lower quality, it's just not how they, or I define quality.
Ton in regards to vanson, they do what they do very well. They don't really make fashion jackets, not that their jackets are unfashionable, but they aren't shooting for that market. Schott clearly is making some effort in that regard and I think that just because they don't have the cachet of real McCoys doesn't mean that if judged without bias ,that a schott isn't superior. I prefer my 628h to my mobster, although very different styles. Not saying vansin should or shld t seek out that market. Just saying if they did I bet they could do as good a job as the Japanese
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