Did Schott buy Shinki? Another Shinki STYLE: P617H

[MattieXMoto]

To those who had a chance to try on: how to you feel the sizing translates to the numbered sizing?

Looking at the measurements Jerri sent me, a ‘Large’ seems to be something like a ‘43’ as compared to the 613 S/HH while the ‘XL’ is just huge.

The medium was bigger than my 519 medium. Or the 40 in cafecto or the 40 in 613sh

The small was like a 38

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I agree with you. And the new J-24 is solid; it's the previous J-24 model that really blew up in our circles (I have a bunch of real life friends with it) and that pattern was quite poor imo.

Oh yeah the new one is much better for sure.

 

[JackBroChill]

Oh yeah the new one is much better for sure.

You mean just in terms of how it fits or is there something more significant to the changes they made?

 

[JackBroChill]

I like everything about this except the hidden lapel snaps. Feel like it needs just a little more going on upstairs.

This is exactly where I'm at. I am glad there's no belt, and probably glad there's no epaulets. But the lack of lapel snaps is almost too 'sleek' and minimal. Probably the only hangup preventing me from buying the thing since I do like the idea of having a Schott (though I'm looking more and more for a nice used Vanson C2 to scratch the double rider itch instead).

 

[Madhouse27]

This is exactly where I'm at. I am glad there's no belt, and probably glad there's no epaulets. But the lack of lapel snaps is almost too 'sleek' and minimal. Probably the only hangup preventing me from buying the thing since I do like the idea of having a Schott (though I'm looking more and more for a nice used Vanson C2 to scratch the double rider itch instead).

My two main crosszips are a Schott 613sh and an ELMC Roadstar. I tend to ride in the Schott and hang out in the Eastman. At some point I’ll probably add a Vanson since I’m a New England guy and it just seems like the thing to do.

 

[Kuro]

As for snaps... it is an easy fix. You need a leather hole punch. Snaps of the correct variety to work with the male ends on the torso of the jacket. A hammer. And a snap riveting tool.

The only difficult part is removing the hidden snaps, with a tool that removes the rivet holding it together, I would use a dremel and a stone that fits within the diameter of the snap. The last part is determining the legth of the rivet tube to pass through the lapel and make a proper rivet to the female snap.

There is already holes on the underside of the lapels to guide the position of the hole punch. I would press lightly first to guage the position of the impression before I committed but there is little chance for a failure of poor position.

If the above does not make sense please forgive me, but I wanted to say the modification would not be difficult and therefore not a reason to hold it back. I have done similar modifications to leather items and would not be afraid to do this. And I am certain people who make or repair leather could easily do it too.

 

[Aloysius]

I've never tried on a Schott with a pattern I liked. Their previous aviator has a pretty bad pattern. I think the classic Perfecto pattern is good except it's still too long and modern in my opinion.

I have a lot less experience with Field and my pattern experience with them is poor so I certainly won't argue with you there.

My point is that it is not a simple black and white case of RMC having worse patterns than Schott. If you want a US maker with seriously great patterns, go Vanson instead of Schott IMO.

Ahh I meant to reply to this half too which I think would flesh out that we're pretty much on the same page.

So my experience here basically mimics my experience with Barbour jackets as a teenager, and I think it probably goes for any (non revived) 'heritage' clothing brand. Your phrase I bolded gets at the heart of it.

The core patterns from brands that have been in business for decades especially ones that started as practical outdoor wear, motorcycle gear, etc are going to be far and away their best. I don't mean this because pattern drafters were better in the past vs now or something like that (whether or not that 's the case is a separate matter entirely). It's because those patterns have been use for decades, consistently tweaked as they get feedback from inside and outside.

So the core 618/613 pattern is great, likewise the 141/641, the 184SM, basically any of these patterns that have been in production for decades, some of which are in styles less popular among us like car coats.

It's the models that are kind of one offs or new designs that don't have this same long process of honing behind them. Hence things like the new aviator pattern, or some of the wonky Schott Japan patterns.

My realization of this was with my Barbour Border and how much better it (or the Beaufort etc) felt to wear and easier it was to move around in than the newer models on the market, a couple of which I owned. (At the time production was still in England too, although I expect even the Eastern Europe made jackets now are patterned in England so that wouldn't make a difference.)

Vanson is basically in a position where most of their collection is in that category of continued practical models from the 70s. (Even the 'new' models are usually just "Model B with a shoulder stripe" and stuff like that.) I haven't tried their fashion one-offs like the Thurston/Yohji jacket but it wouldn't surprise me if they fit weirdly. The Supreme one seems to be the standard race jacket except with Supreme logos so that probably wears fine.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Ahh I meant to reply to this half too which I think would flesh out that we're pretty much on the same page.

So my experience here basically mimics my experience with Barbour jackets as a teenager, and I think it probably goes for any (non revived) 'heritage' clothing brand. Your phrase I bolded gets at the heart of it.

The core patterns from brands that have been in business for decades especially ones that started as practical outdoor wear, motorcycle gear, etc are going to be far and away their best. I don't mean this because pattern drafters were better in the past vs now or something like that (whether or not that 's the case is a separate matter entirely). It's because those patterns have been use for decades, consistently tweaked as they get feedback from inside and outside.

So the core 618/613 pattern is great, likewise the 141/641, the 184SM, basically any of these patterns that have been in production for decades, some of which are in styles less popular among us like car coats.

It's the models that are kind of one offs or new designs that don't have this same long process of honing behind them. Hence things like the new aviator pattern, or some of the wonky Schott Japan patterns.

My realization of this was with my Barbour Border and how much better it (or the Beaufort etc) felt to wear and easier it was to move around in than the newer models on the market, a couple of which I owned. (At the time production was still in England too, although I expect even the Eastern Europe made jackets now are patterned in England so that wouldn't make a difference.)

Vanson is basically in a position where most of their collection is in that category of continued practical models from the 70s. (Even the 'new' models are usually just "Model B with a shoulder stripe" and stuff like that.) I haven't tried their fashion one-offs like the Thurston/Yohji jacket but it wouldn't surprise me if they fit weirdly. The Supreme one seems to be the standard race jacket except with Supreme logos so that probably wears fine.

Very well said I agree. I've tried on the 613 and it's a good pattern, it's just sadly too long for me by quite a lot. It still flatters a lot of people very well though. And I agree that the limited editions tend to have more problems.

Even Vanson's stock C2 is too long for me now, but I'm weird as everyone already pointed out this week to me.

The thought of if pattern makers were better in the past then now is interesting. I definitely know some people who believe strongly in that. I'm not sure if it's that the pattern makers were better or if it's just that more recent fashion trends have been so awful that they've caused companies to make worse patterns to fit demand for bad fit. It could be a mixture of both.

 

[Aloysius]

Very well said I agree. I've tried on the 613 and it's a good pattern, it's just sadly too long for me by quite a lot. It still flatters a lot of people very well though. And I agree that the limited editions tend to have more problems.

Even Vanson's stock C2 is too long for me now, but I'm weird as everyone already pointed out this week to me.

It's a shame the Japanese division, even though they've finally relented on the undersized body, still insist on narrow upper sleeves because if the Asian market just got a short version of the standard 613/618 patterns, that would be a great option for the shorter guys.

The thought of if pattern makers were better in the past then now is interesting. I definitely know some people who believe strongly in that. I'm not sure if it's that the pattern makers were better or if it's just that more recent fashion trends have been so awful that they've caused companies to make worse patterns to fit demand for bad fit. It could be a mixture of both.

Yeah I think the know-how is probably still there, actually more likely within the mass market brands because a pattern fitting a wide group of people comfortably is a massive return on investment. Uniqlo patterns are great for example.

But repro brands in particular I think tend to suffer at this because they're often started by self-taught enthusiasts who are not trained in patterning. (Not all of them, of course.) I think part of why Toyo does better than many others is because they were a clothing manufacturer in general, and even now they some general market sections that are separate from the enthusiast brands we talk about.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

It's a shame the Japanese division, even though they've finally relented on the undersized body, still insist on narrow upper sleeves because if the Asian market just got a short version of the standard 613/618 patterns, that would be a great option for the shorter guys.



Yeah I think the know-how is probably still there, actually more likely within the mass market brands because a pattern fitting a wide group of people comfortably is a massive return on investment. Uniqlo patterns are great for example.

But repro brands in particular I think tend to suffer at this because they're often started by self-taught enthusiasts who are not trained in patterning. (Not all of them, of course.) I think part of why Toyo does better than many others is because they were a clothing manufacturer in general, and even now they some general market sections that are separate from the enthusiast brands we talk about.

Oh man now you made me feel bad because that would have probably been perfect for me aside from the slim arms.

Yeah good point. There are examples of started ups with good patterns, but those are mostly from guys like Himel who have owned tons of vintage jackets so they have good pattern knowledge basis.

 

[Marc mndt]

There are examples of started ups with good patterns, but those are mostly from guys like Himel who have owned tons of vintage jackets so they have good pattern knowledge basis.

You would think Himel should know right? Yet half of his jackets show comically slim sleeves, like they're painted on. The sleeves on the Japanese Schott 613 look wide by comparison lol.

Also remember the totally out of proportion Imperial.

I'd say the chances of getting a properly patterned Himel are hit or miss.

 

[JackBroChill]

As for snaps... it is an easy fix. You need a leather hole punch. Snaps of the correct variety to work with the male ends on the torso of the jacket. A hammer. And a snap riveting tool.

The only difficult part is removing the hidden snaps, with a tool that removes the rivet holding it together, I would use a dremel and a stone that fits within the diameter of the snap. The last part is determining the legth of the rivet tube to pass through the lapel and make a proper rivet to the female snap.

There is already holes on the underside of the lapels to guide the position of the hole punch. I would press lightly first to guage the position of the impression before I committed but there is little chance for a failure of poor position.

If the above does not make sense please forgive me, but I wanted to say the modification would not be difficult and therefore not a reason to hold it back. I have done similar modifications to leather items and would not be afraid to do this. And I am certain people who make or repair leather could easily do it too.

Interesting, good info to have thank you! I wonder if Schott themselves would be willing to do a modification for a slight charge....don't trust myself with such a project just yet!

 

[Aloysius]

Interesting, good info to have thank you! I wonder if Schott themselves would be willing to do a modification for a slight charge....don't trust myself with such a project just yet!

They usually are. They charge a very reasonable fee for alterations.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

You would think Himel should know right? Yet half of his jackets show comically slim sleeves, like they're painted on. The sleeves on the Japanese Schott 613 look wide by comparison lol.

Also remember the totally out of proportion Imperial.

I'd say the chances of getting a properly patterned Himel are hit or miss.


View attachment 662828 View attachment 662829

View attachment 662831

Yeah that Imperial wasn't great, but don't forget that these are custom. I requested the sleeves on my first grizzly be slimmed down, which he did do. Also, I can ask the second guy how comfortable the sleeve fit on his jacket is if you want.

As for the guy in the first picture... horrible example. Did you see how skinny his jeans are? That guy has no idea how anything should fit him, much less a custom leather jacket.

I'm not saying Himel is perfect, but those top two examples, especially the first one are poor.

 

[Marc mndt]

Yeah that Imperial wasn't great, but don't forget that these are custom.

I do understand that, but sometimes a maker should advise against certain customer requests. Most first time buyers do not know what measurements work best for them. That's part of the reason why they go the 'bespoke' route in the first place: because the maker will take care of measurements, adapting them to best fit the customer's body.

Also, I can ask the second guy how comfortable the sleeve fit on his jacket is if you want.

They may or may not be comfortable, but to my eyes they look out of proportion.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I do understand that, but sometimes a maker should advise against certain customer requests. Most first time buyers do not know what measurements work best for them. That's part of the reason why they go the 'bespoke' route in the first place: because the maker will take care of measurements, adapting them to best fit the customer's body.

They may or may not be comfortable, but to my eyes they look out of proportion.

Thats an interesting debate: how much should a maker listen to vs. Advise a customer. Overall I'm on your side with saying a maker should guide a customer, especially a new one.

That said, I'm glad Himel listened to me and just made me exactly what I wanted

 

[Marc mndt]

Thats an interesting debate: how much should a maker listen to vs. Advise a customer.

Lol on my last Thedi Theodoros decided to completely ignore my suggestions for measurements, the result was not good.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Lol on my last Thedi Theodoros decided to completely ignore my suggestions for measurements, the result was not good.

View attachment 662843

Ooooof wow yeah that is quite unfortunate. I hope he's going to fix that for you, especially given that you asked for different measurements.

 

[BuZZ's]

I saw this on the gram and immediately pulled the trigger without hesitation and I’ll tell you why. I bought the Schott Shinki cafe racer last year with a very similar lining and the Shinki is unlike any other I’ve gotten before. It’s quite thick but also very pliable and soft with amazing color and grain. It’s honestly my favorite leather aside from Maybe my caboose. Schott also in my opinion makes a comfortable jacket, more so than my RMC j24L. I’m hopeful this will have the same leather as my cafe racer Schott Shinki collab. Hopefully it is cut a little larger than my j24L and maybe I can consolidate and get rid of a few of my double riders and just keep this really nice comfortable Schott.
Also I tried on a few Vansons and I really wanted to like it, but it’s gotten very wide at the bottom and is a bit too long these days. I ended up going with a lost worlds j22 for actually riding over the oddly proportioned Vanson c2. I think they seem to have changed the pattern it didn’t work for my short torso.

 

[ChewingWax]

I saw this on the gram and immediately pulled the trigger without hesitation and I’ll tell you why. I bought the Schott Shinki cafe racer last year with a very similar lining and the Shinki is unlike any other I’ve gotten before. It’s quite thick but also very pliable and soft with amazing color and grain. It’s honestly my favorite leather aside from Maybe my caboose. Schott also in my opinion makes a comfortable jacket, more so than my RMC j24L. I’m hopeful this will have the same leather as my cafe racer Schott Shinki collab. Hopefully it is cut a little larger than my j24L and maybe I can consolidate and get rid of a few of my double riders and just keep this really nice comfortable Schott.
Also I tried on a few Vansons and I really wanted to like it, but it’s gotten very wide at the bottom and is a bit too long these days. I ended up going with a lost worlds j22 for actually riding over the oddly proportioned Vanson c2. I think they seem to have changed the pattern it didn’t work for my short torso.

Which one is the J-22? I don’t see it on their website.