Democracy

[LizzieMaine]

Somewhere, Peggy Hopkins Joyce is shaking her head and murmuring "Sic Transit Gloria Mundi"

 

[2jakes]

Somewhere, Peggy Hopkins Joyce is shaking her head and murmuring "Sic Transit Gloria Mundi"

I’ve read somewhere that Ms. Joyce actually uttered,
“Gloria threw up on the bus Monday”
when she moonlighted for TOR transit system before
becoming famous.

 

[vitanola]

No! Apparently I don't get out enough.

Well, there is always Fritzie Scheff, Edna Luby, or Grace LaRue .

Of course we cannot leave out Florence Lawrence or Fanny Ward, now can we?

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, if you haven't heard of Lily Langtry, then surely you've heard of Lupe Velez. Lucille Ball, maybe? Miss Ball's photo was on the wall of the music teacher's room in my grade school (Lupe Velez's was not). How about Fanny Brice?

 

[2jakes]

Surely you've heard of Lillian Russell.
Norma Jean, maybe?

 

[BlueTrain]

Lilly Langtry was not of the golden age (gilded age, yes) but all the others were. Some where still around when the golden age had lost its luster. You never know that you're living in a golden age until it's all over. That is, if you ever did.

 

[belfastboy]

Surely you've heard of Lillian Russell.
Norma Jean, maybe?

View attachment 80679

Well if this is her pic then I do have regrets about never knowing Ms Russell

 

[2jakes]

Well if this is her pic then I do have regrets about never knowing Ms Russell

It's Norma Jeane Mortenson (later baptized as Norma Jeane Baker).

 

[BlueTrain]

The local newspaper added a line under its masthead a few months ago: "Democracy dies in darkness."

 

[Harp]

Whenever I encounter some "original intent" type who has difficulty with Holmes' ideal of a Living Constitution, I usually note:

"Hmm. I have a choice, I see. Your 'legal opinion,' or that of Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. Not a difficult choice, fortunately."

Holmes' espousal of empiricism and hostility to common law encapsule of morality and metaphysics as reflective of human experience
has always intrigued; however, the Yankee from Olympus fails philosophically to justify such perspective.
There is much to admire in Holmes but the inner man sounds a discordant note.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Just in time. A War Department Training film from 1947 that, I hear, is currently "going viral" for some reason or another. Almost as good as watching Casablanca, but it only takes 17 minutes. Love the hats. And the message.

 

[BlueTrain]

Holmes' espousal of empiricism and hostility to common law encapsule of morality and metaphysics as reflective of human experience
has always intrigued; however, the Yankee from Olympus fails philosophically to justify such perspective.
There is much to admire in Holmes but the inner man sounds a discordant note.

That's easy for you to say.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Just in time. A War Department Training film from 1947 that, I hear, is currently "going viral" for some reason or another. Almost as good as watching Casablanca, but it only takes 17 minutes. Love the hats. And the message.

Lloyd Nolan doing the narration.

There was a lot of racial backlash in the US just after the war, and there was a backlash against that backlash -- one of the more notable examples was "The Adventures of Superman" on radio, which broadcast several continuing storylines about Superman's efforts to smash a Ku Klux Klan-like organization. These benefited from information provided by a journalist who had actually infiltrated the Klan and provided inside information on how it functioned, allowing the scenes involving the organization to be depicted with a realism not expected from a program about an alien flying man in blue tights. The show was praised for its courage in presenting these stories, but that courage only went so far: the sponsor, Kellogg's, was worried about losing sales in the South, so the program was not allowed to make any mention of "Negroes" during these storylines. Democracy only goes so far when commerce is involved.

 

[BlueTrain]

The Klan worships a long-gone civilization that they were probably never a part of, although the percentage of the free who owned slaves was much higher than is claimed in several states. The South worships honor. The North worships freedom, at least as they see it. The West also worships freedom, but again only as they see it. The old worships youth. Youth, however, does not worship the old. But they all worship money.

 

[LizzieMaine]

"Honor" is the second refuge of scoundrels. Patriotism is the first.

 

[BlueTrain]

Those words have no meaning when people like that use them. It's like honor among thieves. Patriotism, I think, might be confused with loyalty to the government, to the party, to the party leader and so on. But during the American Revolution, the patriots were on one side, the loyalists on the other. Who can blame one for being confused?

I suppose one could even be honor-bound to do the wrong thing, if it were required.

 

[Ticklishchap]

One of the problems affecting our democracy (and when I say 'our' I refer to both sides of the Atlantic or both partners in the 'special relationship') is a literal and extreme interpretation of the ideal of equality. As I am not a resident or citizen of the US, I won't comment on recent events there and will use two examples from the UK instead. First, as an outgrowth of events in the US, there are now very loud-mouthed 'activists' demanding that Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square be pulled down because the Admiral was a 'white supremacist'. Apart from the use of an anachronistic (and hence inaccurate) term, the whole idea of pulling down statues and monuments is reminiscent of China during the Cultural Revolution, the Khmer Rouge or Islamic State. My second example is a news item about a bowls club in the East Midlands that voted against admitting female members. Somehow that made the BBC News and was presented as if it was reprehensible. Who in their right mind could object to a bunch of old men playing bowls? I've belonged to an all-male hiking club for years and am very happy with it. I am equally happy with other people belonging to mixed or all-female clubs. Are we going to get some lunatic 'activist' telling us that every hiking and outdoor club should be unisex? It does not seem far-fetched any more. We're losing the concept of freedom of association, which is one of the foundations of democratic civil society, and allowing screaming, semi-literate 'students' to set the agenda. This is anti-democratic at the most profound level.

 

[BlueTrain]

To be quite honest about it, it does not follow that freedom and democracy are going to be civil and quiet. Historically, it has been messy, rude, and rough and tumble. The ones that got our system going (on the second attempt) had just gone through a war and were unlikely to be kind and gentle. You should read what H.L. Mencken had to say about the subject.

In a sense, all governments are democracies. The only differences is in who gets to vote. Few citizens could vote in the first presidential election. Kings were even elected in a few places. Complications set in, not so much in who gets to vote, so much as in who gets to run--and what happens to the loser. Political parties differ a great deal in the way they see things but none of that matter once money enters into the matter in large amounts. Sooner or later, that seems to be a problem everywhere.

I live in the American South, sort of (depending on where you draw the line), and I can see the issues surrounding monuments. My wife's great-great-grandfather (give or take a generation) was General Samuel Cooper, Adjutant General of the Confederate Army. He was actually from New York but had married George Mason's granddaughter and you know how that works. But more importantly, he had been adjutant general of the United States Army, too, under Jefferson Davis, when Davis was Secretary of War, so he just sort of kept his old job under his old boss. My wife's aunt and uncle still own the property where he lived in Alexandria, Virginia.

The irony of all this business of white nationalism is the apparent failure of those malcontents to realize that white people already largely run everything. Old white men, to be more precise. Very rich old white men, too. But who gets to say who's white in the first place? The Irish weren't counted as white when they began arriving in large numbers before our civil war.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Keeping the working class divided and at each others' throats is a fine old American tradition. The entire myth of the South was built on it, and it gets a lot of mileage up North, too. The doctrine of white supremacy has long been a tool in encouraging and enforcing that division. "Don't Be A Sucker!" indeed.

 

[Harp]

One of the problems affecting our democracy (and when I say 'our' I refer to both sides of the Atlantic or both partners in the 'special relationship') is a literal and extreme interpretation of the ideal of equality. ... there are now very loud-mouthed 'activists' demanding that Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square be pulled down because the Admiral was a 'white supremacist'. Apart from the use of an anachronistic (and hence inaccurate) term, the whole idea of pulling down statues and monuments is reminiscent of China during the Cultural Revolution, the Khmer Rouge or Islamic State. and allowing screaming, semi-literate 'students' to set the agenda. This is anti-democratic at the most profound level.

Truth is feared by many as a fit object of scorn; most notably(and incongruously)on campus, where emotion prevails far too easily and simply over reason.