Dave Brown Hats

[GClark]

You guys know there is a previous thread on this subject?
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=361

 

[Carlisle Blues]

He may not have made 'THE' hat, but that doesn't mean he did not make 'A' hat. The date of that article is 2006. When did Benjamin Button come out? 2008! So, a lot can happen during the prep, filming and post of a motion picture - including a change of hats.

Based on an opinion that was expressed by a poster in this thread (which was deleted by a bartender) and a vendor whom I respect doing any kind of business regarding that vendor is too risky for me.

 

[tonyb]

I agree completely - I also had another similar thought: based on the information on their website, it seems like Baron made the boater for Public Enemies. So it seems that the hats for that movie were not farmed out exclusively to ONE company. What if Brown made one of Depp's other fedoras? I know that there are at least three hats that Depp wears in public enemies, so it's possible that Optimo made the oxblood, Baron made the boater, and Dave Brown made that tan/gray hat from the escape scene (or maybe another Depp hat, if he had any). Then he told the person who runs his website "hey, I made a hat for Johnny Depp in the film 'Public Enemies,'" and the person running his website googles "Johnny Depp public enemies," sees Depp wearing the oxblood, figures that's the one, adds a nifty title underneath saying that it's the hat made by Dave Brown, and adds it to the site. What do you think guys? Plausible? -M

Plausible? Sure.

Still, though, the photo and the copy clearly leaves the impression that the "famous" hat from "Public Enemies," the one Johnny Depp wears in that scene from which that still photo was taken, was made by that fellow in Rochester. I haven't claimed it wasn't, because I have no absolutely certain way of knowing. But, as I noted a couple of pages back, people in a better position to know such things, people whose credibility is well established, are unanimous in their view that the hat was made in Chicago, not Rochester.

 

[Feraud]

You guys know there is a previous thread on this subject?
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=361

It appears Mr. Brown's reputation here has not improved.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Based on an opinion that was expressed by a poster in this thread (which was deleted by a bartender) and a vendor whom I respect doing any kind of business regarding that vendor is too risky for me.

And that is YOUR choice! And that is fine. But I do take umbrage when a man's honesty, and therefore his livelihood, is put into question when they are not here to defend themselves and when such questions regarding his work and claims are based on what could simply be the wrong photo.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

It appears Mr. Brown's reputation here has not improved.

Exactly:arated: shakeshead

 

[tonyb]

And that is YOUR choice! And that is fine. But I do take umbrage when a man's honesty, and therefore his livelihood, is put into question when they are not here to defend themselves and when such questions regarding his work and claims are based on what could simply be the wrong photo.

I don't wish to drag a person's good name through the mud either, Mr. Lucky. And I don't think that I, for one, have done that. And I think I can cite a few others who object to that apparently misleading photo and copy on that website who also are addressing that matter only, and not the fellow's parentage or proclivities or anything else.

Keep in mind also that your perspective here seems to be in the minority. This is what you wrote a bit earlier ...

Not in the defense, nor the reprimand of anyone, but my initial impression, given the layout and such, is that he DOES NOT claim to have made the Dillinger hat, just that he has made hats for Depp and that pic is a stock image. It may imply something else to some, but I didn't get that inkling.

It's safe to say that most of us have a decidedly different view. As I noted earlier, that photo, with that copy, goes well beyond implication. It's so close to an assertion that to call it something else is to further the fiction.

But, as I'm saying for the third or fourth time ... I have no firsthand knowledge. But I know what I believe, based on the best evidence. And I'll continue in that belief until I see more compelling evidence to the contrary. I don't expect that to happen.

 

[Mulceber]

Plausible? Sure.

Still, though, the photo and the copy clearly leaves the impression that the "famous" hat from "Public Enemies," the one Johnny Depp wears in that scene from which that still photo was taken, was made by that fellow in Rochester. I haven't claimed it wasn't, because I have no absolutely certain way of knowing. But, as I noted a couple of pages back, people in a better position to know such things, people whose credibility is well established, are unanimous in their view that the hat was made in Chicago, not Rochester.

My thoughts as well - still, it does make a difference. It's the difference between a man who lies and a man who needs to be more careful about what his advertiser says about him. I agree though that it does nevertheless send the message that he made the oxblood hat, when the clear consensus seems to be that he didn't. -M

 

[Art Fawcett]

A question for Art,

What proportion of your hat sales do you attribute to the movie connection? You've said you don't make a big deal about having some of your hats used in movies and to me that sound quite understandable. When it comes right down to it, I've got to believe most of your clientele antes up for a Fawcett hat because it's of fine quality and suits them, not because of a hat that was worn in this or that movie.

As such, I have doubts that Mr. Brown's dubious self-promotion really buys him a whole lot of business at Mr. Fawcett's expense. Or anyone else's for that matter. But maybe I don't understand why people buy hats.

The short answer to your question about how much of my business is movie related? Zero

Making things for and providing things for film really is only good for bragging rights unless it's a blockbuster like Public Enemies or Raiders. PE has already increased Grahams biz quite a bit to his surprise. Mr. Brown's claim on the Benjamin hat can be equivocated with wording and it really doesn't matter ,but putting on the pic of Depp that he made the hat is pretty blatant. I doubt that Graham ( Optimo) will do anything legally over it, he just isn't that sort of guy but if I were in his shoes I would be sorely tempted to make a correction happen.
So, bottom line, movie credits & $3.50 will get you a Starbucks mocha..the rest is usually about ego.

It ALWAYS hurts when someone else takes credit for your work, no matter what that work is, correct? As an example Mr. Lucky, if I claimed the writing on Deadwood it would get your neck a bit disjointed, wouldn't it? If you called me out on it, are you trying to ruin my business or just keeping the record straight?

 

[gtdean48]

And that is YOUR choice! And that is fine. But I do take umbrage when a man's honesty, and therefore his livelihood, is put into question when they are not here to defend themselves and when such questions regarding his work and claims are based on what could simply be the wrong photo.

He chose to put the claim in this medium & takes on all that it manifests. In this audience, it will cost him unknown amounts of business. It may generate him other business. To alienate the truly appreciative of his craft is a loss.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

And that is YOUR choice! And that is fine. But I do take umbrage when a man's honesty, and therefore his livelihood, is put into question when they are not here to defend themselves and when such questions regarding his work and claims are based on what could simply be the wrong photo.

Well if he deigned to come to The Fedora Lounge then he would have an opportunity to discuss this matter. What he places for public consumption gets interpreted and discussed. [huh] Of course, I should have know better than to post Steve Martin in rabbit ears for fear that is may be interpreted and then discussed...........lol lol lol lol I just cannot say that with a straight face.lol lol

 

[Guttersnipe]

This debate really surpasses issues of "empirical" and "circumstantial" evidence

As a someone with professional skilled tradesman/artisan background this is what I have to say about all of this. If some where to take credit for my paint or print work - and i ain't taking about walls or pressing ctrl+p - through omission, deception, or implication, whether on purpose or through carelessness, I would take great exception.

As person who takes pride in my work, and respects the work of my peers, I take great care to make sure such mix ups do not occur, and would go great lengths clear-up any inadvertent misunderstanding, should they somehow occur. The notion that a possible mix up has occurred because some else may run this vendors website is highly specious, to my mind, and I think vendors here with unimpeachable reputations would agree with me on that.

Let me ask this question: do any of the highly respected hatters that are so often referred to here post pictures of "random" fedoras in such a way as that they may be confused for their own creations? No, of course they don't. Assuming this whole episode is catastrophic misunderstanding, it still speaks volumes about the vendor. It says he is careless with his marketing claims, and does show proper oversight in running his business.

 

[GWD]

Just a quick aside here.

It warms my heart that so many of you folks are actually offended by this.

It's probably why we're all so attracted to the "Golden Era" when a mans word was his bond.

This kind of business practice is now almost the norm, honesty and integrity and most of all honor, are all but extinct these days.

Everyday we see people lying, cheating and stealing with absolutely no ill repercussions. In fact they're often rewarded for being shrewd businessmen. Or the two bit no talent "celebrities" that are publicized every time they get a DUI or are caught cheating on their wives. Being pompous and overbearing and belligerent are the qualities that now make for good television.

Thanks for somewhat restoring my faith in mankind.

Gary

 

[Mr. Lucky]

So, what happened to innocent UNTIL proven guilty? What happened to evidence of purposeful wrongdoing? Or even REAL evidence? Aren't those fundamental precepts of the Golden Era?

I have not seen one shred of CONFIRMED PROOF that Dave Brown purposefully, and with malice, attempted to deceive anyone! Nor have I seen Mr. Brown given the time or opportunity to even defend himself before judgment is passed. Yet, without the above, a man's character and his trade are being erroneously, and consistently, besmirched! And done so with such a sense of absolutism and arrogance that it boggles the mind! Taking 'offense' at a perceived wrong doing, without actual knowledge that something was done wrong, well, that's just petty and small and churlish. And to impugn his character - over an internet message board! Now THAT is offensive.

 

[Garrett]

Lucky - Read Art Fawcett's posts....more than once if you need to

 

[Carlisle Blues]

It warms my heart that so many of you folks are actually offended by this.

It's probably why we're all so attracted to the "Golden Era" when a mans word was his bond.

This kind of business practice is now almost the norm, honesty and integrity and most of all honor, are all but extinct these days.

Everyday we see people lying, cheating and stealing with absolutely no ill repercussions. In fact they're often rewarded for being shrewd businessmen. Or the two bit no talent "celebrities" that are publicized every time they get a DUI or are caught cheating on their wives. Being pompous and overbearing and belligerent are the qualities that now make for good television.

Thanks for somewhat restoring my faith in mankind.

Gary

Gary I hate to do this but...........

fftopic: The False Claims Act, also known as the "Lincoln Law," was enacted during the Civil War to combat the fraud perpetrated by companies that sold supplies to the Union Army.

War profiteers were shipping boxes of sawdust instead of guns, for instance, and swindling the Union Army into purchasing the same cavalry horses several times. "You can sell anything to the government at almost any price you’ve got the guts to ask," boasted one profiteer who made millions unloading moth-eaten blankets to the military.

President Abraham Lincoln strongly advocated passage of the False Claims Act. It contained "qui tam" provisions that allowed private citizens to sue, on the government’s behalf, companies and individuals that were defrauding the government. "Qui tam" is short for a Latin phrase, "qui tam pro domino rege quam pro se ipso in hac parte sequitur," which roughly means "he who brings an action for the king as well as for himself." Congress passed the statute on March 2, 1863.

It is nothing new.....

 

[Matt Deckard]

We could just call him about the website claims and whether or not he decided to put that up himself or a web designer did it?

He chose to put the claim in this medium & takes on all that it manifests. In this audience, it will cost him unknown amounts of business. It may generate him other business. To alienate the truly appreciative of his craft is a loss.

I actually think it will increase his business. He's not really talked about much and having another thread focused on his hats only brings interest in some ways.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Lucky - Read Art Fawcett's posts....more than once if you need to

I have. I greatly respect Art as a person and as a craftsman. I like him too! And while I respect his opinion, it is ONLY his opinion. He has also agreed with me on a couple of points - that, in the film business, more than one vendor is often asked to make the same thing. That what happens prior to a movie many times is NOT what is in the movie. Someone also pointed out that, in the case of "Public Enemies", Depp wears more than one felt hat! Are all those hats made by Optimo? Can that be proved or disproved?

What I am saying is that there are far too many questions than answers in this case, yet, it seems, judgement has already been passed and the verdict is guilty!

 

[Carlisle Blues]

What I am saying is that there are far too many questions than answers in this case, yet, it seems, judgement has already been passed and the verdict is guilty!

No, more like a vote of no confidence

 

[Mulceber]

Regardless of what it's a verdict or vote of, we should have more concrete evidence before we smear this man's work on the internet. Keep in mind, gentlemen, that people looking for information on Dave Brown's hats may well google him and read these posts. We don't have 100% evidence that he sought to take credit for another's work, so until we do we should keep any insinuations about him, his training and his business practices to a minimum.

Also, another idiosyncrasy I should point out: the incriminating photo of Depp with the words written underneath has been posted, but if you look at the list of movies he's made hats for, he doesn't list Public Enemies. -M