Dating Your Hat (A Place to Discuss the Age of Your Vintage Hat)

[Just Daniel]

Súper cool sweatband stamps!

There is a store name. Ferner Jacobsen AS Oslo Import. Also, under the Knox logo on the sweatband it looks like it says "Made in Italy Under License". I'm not sure if any of those indicate the age. I looked up Ferner Jacobsen and it looks like they're still in business. I also don't know if the KV by the store name are initials or something else. Usually when I see initials in hats I see three initials, first middle and last. Again any information would be appreciated. Thanks everyone!

EDIT: Not sure if this pic helps, but the only thing I could find behind the sweatband is a square shaped stamp with nothing legible on it and a few stamps of the number 1279. Is that at all relevant to anything?

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[Christopher Smith]

Thanks! No idea what they mean. But I agree they are cool.

Súper cool sweatband stamps!

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Anyone with better eyes or imagination want to take a guess at the year:

 

[alanfgag]

19_2

 

[deadlyhandsome]

19_2

1912 it is.
Bummer to be so close and yet so far.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I guess the only question is if it’s 1952 or 1962. I’m guessing ‘62. The rest of the hat:

 

[moehawk]

I guess the only question is if it’s 1952 or 1962. I’m guessing ‘62. The rest of the hat:

View attachment 269119 View attachment 269121 View attachment 269122 View attachment 269123 View attachment 269124 View attachment 269125

I'm guessing '52. The liner tip crest looks similar to the one on my c. 1950 3XBQ, except for the leaf replacing the stars.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I'm guessing '52. The liner tip crest looks similar to the one on my c. 1950 3XBQ, except for the leaf replacing the stars.

I hope you’re right. The overall shape of the hat led me to believe later. I believe the plastic liner tip covers came around in the early 1950s, but I don’t know when they were discontinued.

 

[moehawk]

I hope you’re right. The overall shape of the hat led me to believe later. I believe the plastic liner tip covers came around in the early 1950s, but I don’t know when they were discontinued.

I think they were discontinued by Stetson in the late 70's, after "the wet look" went out of fashion.
I was going more by the stars on the sweat and the leaf on the liner.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I think they were discontinued by Stetson in the late 70's, after "the wet look" went out of fashion.
I was going more by the stars on the sweat and the leaf on the liner.

I’ve heard some respected members say the “stars and leaf” are not to be relied on and others who swear by it. I’ve remained neutral but decided to not use it myself, but you may be spot on.

 

[Just Daniel]

The sweatband sewing interests me. Have you seen VVV stitching in that time period? I have not seen it in any of my 50s hats. I wonder if the sweatband was replaced?

From my research, the liner is definitely a later Stetson, I don’t have any better exact date than anyone else but I assume the color liners are late 50s / early 60s.

I think the selv-edge came later as well, but I have to refresh my memory on that thread. Stetson states it was first used in 1933 in a trademark application from ‘54.

Daniel

I guess the only question is if it’s 1952 or 1962. I’m guessing ‘62. The rest of the hat:

View attachment 269119 View attachment 269121 View attachment 269122 View attachment 269123 View attachment 269124 View attachment 269125

 

[Just Daniel]

From my observations, the main guide point for when stars changed to a leaf is ~ ‘52. We see the transition with oil skin liners and definitely almost complete by the time plastic makes an appearance. There are exceptions.

There was a lot of later use of the stars in the less-used sweatbands such as the 100s; a few other models overlapped as well.

The leaf also must have appeared earlier than ‘52. On their trademark application Stetson states the earliest date of use in 1946. See post 17:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/stetson-intellectual-property-data.101506/

So as my grandmother used to say, it’s clear as mud

I’ve heard some respected members say the “stars and leaf” are not to be relied on and others who swear by it. I’ve remained neutral but decided to not use it myself, but you may be spot on.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

The sweatband sewing interests me. Have you seen VVV stitching in that time period? I have not seen it in any of my 50s hats. I wonder if the sweatband was replaced?

From my research, the liner is definitely a later Stetson, I don’t have any better exact date than anyone else but I assume the color liners are late 50s / early 60s.

I think the selv-edge came later as well, but I have to refresh my memory on that thread.

Daniel

The sweatband is original as far as I know, but it was coming out and hand sewn back in. The feel of the felt is more in line with late ‘50s or early ‘60s.

Brad Bowers wrote that Selv-Edge was used in the 1930s and was probably replaced at some point by Mode-Edge. Selv-Edge came back in the late 1950s and into the ‘60s. If the date ends in a “2” then I’m sticking with 1962.

 

[Just Daniel]

Yes, I edited my post above to include their trademark dates. Original use of Selv-Edge ‘33 and the trademark applied for in ‘54.

Not complete evidence, but supportive of our observations.

See post #37

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/stetson-intellectual-property-data.101506/page-2

The sweatband is original as far as I know, but it was coming out and hand sewn back in. The feel of the felt is more in line with late ‘50s or early ‘60s.

Brad Bowers wrote that Selv-Edge was used in the 1930s and was probably replaced at some point by Mode-Edge. Selv-Edge came back in the late 1950s and into the ‘60s. If the date ends in a “2” then I’m sticking with 1962.

 

[Christopher Smith]

Hi everyone! I just won this hat in an auction on Ebay and was wondering if anyone could help me put a date on it. I read in another thread that Herbert Johnson hats used to have a tag under the sweatband that had the year of manufacture. So I'm sure I'll be able to check that once the hat arrives. I heard that after 1982 they stopped including that tag so I have some good information on how I can figure this out myself once I get the hat. Anyway, can anyone give me an estimate based these pictures?

 

[jlee562]

38 New Bond was the original location up until 1971. Folks on COW believe that there may have been crossover as stock of liners didn't necessarily correlate with moving dates, but it's almost certainly 71 or earlier.

 

[Christopher Smith]

Wow! Thank you for that information. That's great to know. If it was pre-1971 or really as long as it was pre -1982 it means the tag with the year of manufacture should be under the sweatband. In any event, I'm super glad I was able to get this one.

Edit: The liner says "By Appointment to Her Majesty the Queen Hatters" and it says Herbert Johnson (Bond Street) LTD. I'm wondering if that could be of some help dating it? I did some research and when Herbert Johnson was founded Queen Victoria was queen. From what I read however, Herbert Johnson did not become the "royal hatter" until 1901 under King Edward VII who would not have been referred to as "Her Majesty". The next person to be "Her Majesty the Queen" would have been Queen Elizabeth II who wasn't coronated until 1953. And Herbert Johnson became a limited LTD company in 1929. So I'm guessing with all that information the hat could be placed anywhere from 1930 - 1971 based on fact that the lining has the LTD on it. But I'm guessing it's more likely that the hat is from after 1953 since it says "Her Majesty the Queen". Does this make any sense or can anyone confirm that I'm on the right track here?

38 New Bond was the original location up until 1971. Folks on COW believe that there may have been crossover as stock of liners didn't necessarily correlate with moving dates, but it's almost certainly 71 or earlier.

 

[Steve1857]

It will be after the coronation in 1953. So somewhere between 1953 - 1971. Looks 50s to me. Possibly very early 60s.

Great looking hat. Nice catch.

 

[Steve1857]

I just checked. Herbert Johnson were to be found at 38 New Bond Street until 1975.

 

[jlee562]

I just checked. Herbert Johnson were to be found at 38 New Bond Street until 1975.

Good catch, Steve. My info was from COW posted by Steve Delk.