Dating a Cavanagh hat

[thunderw21]

I'm usually pretty good at dating hats (open doors, return home before curfew, walk to the door, etc.) but this one has me stumped.

It's either from the 1930s or the mid-1950s, I'm leaning towards the 1930s.

The crown is 5" bashed and the brim is 2 1/4" (Cav. edge is present), very popular dimensions for the early to mid-1930s. The ribbon is pretty wide but not to '50s standards. The frayed bow treatment is not something that's usually seen in the '50s, either.

The tag under the sweatband prices it at $25, which was a lot for a hat back in the 1930s (Cavanagh was a top quality company, so an expensive hat would not be out of the question).

I wonder, can any of the expert hat folks help me out? Dinerman? Baron?

 

[Dinerman]

It's not '30s. The frayed bow thing was a Cavanagh thing long after it went out of style with other manufacturers.

I'm going to defer to Brad Bowers for a definitive date, but I'm leaning later '50s.

 

[thunderw21]

Thanks, D-man, that helps a bit.

 

[Brad Bowers]

D-man got it right, late Fifties. The block shape gives it away. Everything else is consistent, too. Those dimensions are seen on Cavanaghs throughout the Fifties, as is the $25 price point.

Brad

 

[thunderw21]

Thanks much! I always have trouble with Cavanaghs.

 

[Brad Bowers]

You're welcome. They are some of the hardest hats to date.

Brad

 

[feltfan]

Another thing to keep in mind is that size tag.
I'm betting that gold tag is a sign that it's late 50s-70s.
The gold tag is just not a golden era printing style as far
as I can tell.

Part of what makes Cavanaghs so hard to date is that they
seem to have kept a stash of great felt as late as the '70s.
I have a Cav that I believe, from what the original owner told
me, is a '70s hat, but from all dimensions and other signs could
have been '40s. The logo didn't change much over the years,
though the detail in the printing can help date the hat, too.

I'm guessing '30s Cavs had a lighter, real silk satin lining and a cloth
or plain (not coated stock) size tag.

As for price, what do we know about Cav prices? I have Cavs
that I would be confident came from the '50s priced at $25, but
was that still the price through the '60s for some hats? I don't know.

To look at the block and sweatband, I'd guess '60s on this hat,
but Brad may know better.

 

[Brad Bowers]

As for price, what do we know about Cav prices? I have Cavs
that I would be confident came from the '50s priced at $25, but
was that still the price through the '60s for some hats? I don't know.

It very well could be early-'60s, Feltfan, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.

The $25 price point comes about in the late-'50s, somewhere around '56 or '57, though I haven't yet pinpointed it exactly. That price point lasted well into the '60s, though how long, I don't yet know that, either. Things really changed at Hat Corp., and subsequently, at Cavanagh, after '56.

Brad

 

[feltfan]

Thanks Brad, and apologies for my rambling post.

I'm trying to remember-can't we tell something from
the printing in the liner? I just carefully compared an
older and newer liner and, while they are nearly identical,
I would say the older liner has broader, more nuanced lines
(thick-to-thin) and better color registration and the newer
one has markedly thinner lines and possibly the gold and
red are a bit more garish, like the one in the picture above
(but then again, my older one isn't as clean).

I know, I need to post pictures. Maybe soon. It'd be a
first step towards figuring this one out!

 

[Brad Bowers]

Wasn't rambling as far as I'm concerned, so no apology necessary!

And you're right about the printing in the liners. I noticed that, too, the more Cavanaghs I handle. I'm 100% positive that the quality is reflective of the age of the hat; the better the quality, the older the hat. The big question is, of course, to when does it approximate? And that I can't tell you, though I still feel 1956 is the magic cutoff date.

Brad

 

[jamespowers]

40s liner

20s-30s liner

They always did have a paper size tag as you can see from this photo. They style was different in the 1930s though.

This liner is different but it is a fairly old tophat liner:

Color is the main difference though.

Another:

Older hats you find will tend to have a thicker sweatband as shown here.

They are pretty much the same on the inside. The printing on the sweatband gives you a bit of an idea though style of the outside of the hat will tell you for sure.
On looking closer, the difference seems to the the tail on the cursive h. The higher the tail goes the older it seems to be by these examples.

 

[thunderw21]

Great reference, jamespower.

 

[Viper Man]

I have also noticed the liner material differs in the Cavanaghs I own. I have two from the 50s and the liner is a heavier satin, while the liner in my best Cavanagh (which I estimate to be from the 40s) is more of a bridal silk type material. Also, the older hat has a wider brim. [huh]

 

[feltfan]

Older hats you find will tend to have a thicker sweatband as shown here.

That is a good point- older Cavs do have a wider sweatband.
However, your picture showed a top hat and they often have
a wider sweatband- part of the style.

Viper Man-the widest brim Cav I have is also my newest.
Can't go on that alone. It seems to me they catered to
an old fashioned crowd.

 

[jamespowers]

I have also noticed the liner material differs in the Cavanaghs I own. I have two from the 50s and the liner is a heavier satin, while the liner in my best Cavanagh (which I estimate to be from the 40s) is more of a bridal silk type material. Also, the older hat has a wider brim. [huh]

The liner material is different in the older hats. However, this does not apply to the higher end Cavanaghs. The Cavanagh Fifty that I pictured has a heavier liner which is likely silk but it is newer than the others I listed. For fifty bucks back then you got better accoutrements.

 

[jamespowers]

That is a good point- older Cavs do have a wider sweatband.
However, your picture showed a top hat and they often have
a wider sweatband- part of the style.

Viper Man-the widest brim Cav I have is also my newest.
Can't go on that alone. It seems to me they catered to
an old fashioned crowd.

The older Cavanaghs do have a wider sweatband but again, the later higher end models do as well. They are really quite nice with extra tooling around the top of the sweatband. You can't really see it in the picture. Early tophats had a thicker sweatband but later models did not---clearly a cost cutting measure.

 

[Brad Bowers]

It seems to me they catered to
an old fashioned crowd.

This is the case, Feltfan.

John Cavanagh was a marketing genius at a time when national marketing was just coming on the scene. In 1906 he positioned Crofut & Knapp, and Dobbs, after its inception in 1908, as high-quality hats aimed squarely at the stylish young man. By changing the styles and colors every season, C&K and Dobbs were able to build a large and devoted following across the country, and dictate which way fashions went.

However, when it came time to develop his own high-end brand along with his very exclusive shop and distribution system, he knew that the customer he was pursuing was VERY conservative, and thus, his styles did not change seasonally like C&K and Dobbs, at least, not radically, but remained very consistent throughout his nearly three-decades of involvement in Cavanagh hats. Cavanagh's customers aged along with him, and their taste remained of an earlier era. A hat style produced by Cavanagh in 1953 would not look out of place in 1923.

Brad

 

[jamespowers]

A hat style produced by Cavanagh in 1953 would not look out of place in 1923.

Brad

That and the quality was nearly the same through all those years---unlike certain hat companies today. Consistency was not a problem of his.

 

[MattJH]

Bumping this one!

Finally, after several years of searching, my very first Cavanagh in 7 5/8 and it even has a 2 1/4" brim, which is pretty perfect for me. The two hats I wear the most have 2 1/4" brims (until I got my VS, at least). Cavanagh Edge, too. Awesome! I feel like I stole it, it looks practically new. How old is it if the seller is accurate in its original cost of $20? According to this thread, $25 for Cavanagh was in the mid-to-late fifties, and the 40's liner shown in the auction looks exactly like the one in this thread stating it's from the 40's, so I'm assuming (and hoping) it's from the 40's.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Glad you got it!

It could be '40s or '50s, either one. No way to tell for sure, at this point. Let me know if it has a Union label once you get it.

Brad