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Concerns regarding my Aero Bootlegger

l'oreille

New in Town
Messages
32
Location
Belgium
G'day ladies and gentlemen - long time lurker (about 3 years in fact!), first-time poster. I apologize in advance for 1) the fairly negative tone of this post - I have some problems with a recently-bought Aero jacket, which are making me wonder if I did the right thing spending such a large amount of money on a jacket; 2) the long post - I tend to keep writing once I get started; and 3) the rather quirky English - English is my fourth language, and not even a year-long internship in Dublin could remove the "continental European"-quirks from my English. (It did, however, leave me with a new-found appreciation of Irish whiskey - but that's another story altogether.)

Anyway, on to the heart of the matter. I discovered Aero through this forum, and had been playing the "should I or shouldn't I"-game for well over a year before I finally decided to pull the trigger a couple of months ago on a FQHH Bootlegger jacket. The jacket arrived a while ago, and my first impressions were very positive indeed: the fit was spot on, and the leather quality seemed to be out of this world on first glance. Beautiful grain, very sturdy, very heavy. The Bootlegger model is quite vintage-looking, very unlike the typical mall-jacket of today. In short, I was very, *very* pleasantly surprised by the jacket, and I thought I'd found the jacket that was going to be my daily wearer for the next ten years or so. So pleased in fact that I immediately started brainstorming about ordering a Long Halfbelt, hah.

However, today I sat down and had a closer, better look at my jacket, and found a couple of things that were a bit unfamiliar, unheard of and plain strange to me. Two things bug me and - being somewhat prone to obsessive worrying - I know that these things could become a major source of worry for me, especially on a £600 jacket. Fortunately, this forum seems to house a lot of Aero-aficionados, so I thought I'd run my problems by you lot. I'm sincerely hoping that I'm making a big fuzz out of nothing, but here goes:

The first issue is regarding the difference between the "smooth" and "jerky" leather. The leather used on the torso and back of the jacket is very smooth, and feels very solid. However, one of the lapels of my jacket has very "grainy", or "jerky" leather. It's not just slightly more grainy, it has tons of folds, creases and ridges on it, right out of the box. It's the horse-hide equivalent of Keith Richards' face. I think it *looks* fantastic (the jacket - I have no opinion whatsoever of Mr. Richards' face), as if the animal's scars and skin blemish are all still there. However, I'm not too sure about whether this affects the strength and durability of that spot of leather. Should I be worried about the more "gnarly"-looking, scarred and jerky leather being more prone to drying out and cracking than the smoother leather? This isn't a major source of concern for me - I'm not expecting the jacket to last me 30 years, but I was hoping for something like a decade of solid wear, really. Every picture I've seen of vintage jackets (meaning older than 40 years) showed plenty of grain in the jacket, but very little creases and blemishes. Could it be that there is some kind of survivor-effect going on there, with the more jerky leather being more prone to cracking and tearing, resulting in these jackets being discarded?

The second issue is of much bigger concern to me. On the sleeves of my Bootlegger, I noticed that the different pieces of leather constituting the sleeve are joined in two ways: they are either stitched together (with the stitches showing, e.g. on the outside of the sleeves) or one piece is sort of "folded over" the other (with no stitches showing, on the inside of the sleeves as shown in this picture: http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL806/142228/4523742/56783277.jpg - you can see the "folded over" joining of the leather there). Upon closer examination of the folded-over bits, I noticed little pieces of some sort of sticky residue (almost silicone- or glue-like) could be seen inside the fold. It's not a solid line of glue, but small pieces in a "stitch-like" pattern. If I squeeze my fingernail in the fold, I can sort of pick the residue out. Has anyone else noticed this glue-like substance in the folds of their jackets? I've never had a leather jacket of this quality before: all of the other jackets I have are typical "mall-jackets", and they all show stitching where the different pieces of leather are joined. On this Aero, it seems as if the leather is simply folded over and glued together - is that right? If so, isn't that a lot less durable than having it stitched together? I tend to be very rough on my jackets, as I consider them workwear (after all, that's what leather was for back in the days!), and I don't hesitate to put them through different kinds of weather. I'm guessing that this would result in the glue dissolving over time, and the jacket falling apart. The other aspect is purely aesthetic: the contrast between the fantastic, thick, high-quality leather and this glue showing is remarkable. I've never handled a vintage jacket, so I have no idea what they're like - whether they had stitches showing at every "seam" or not. Maybe someone could shine some light on that?

Again, I'm hoping that I'm making a big fuzz about nothing - it just seems strange to find "glue" on a jacket of this price category. Especially seeing as the person who made the jacket is someone whose name I've seen mentioned on this very forum before, and always in a very positive manner. (I must say that if it wasn't for this "glue residue issue", I'd be singing the praises of Aero as well right now - in fact I'd probably be posting about how much I'm looking forward to my Stockman!)

I sincerely thank all of you in advance for your reply - this is somewhat doing my head in.
 

JanSolo

Practically Family
Messages
879
Location
Ever so sunny Westphalia, Germany
L'oreille, welcome to this place! I hope I can put your mind at rest!

1. Grain mismatch on FQHH is very common and doesn't affect the strength of the jacket at all! The skin tends to be smooth and even at the center and becomes more wrinkly and shows more pronounced grain closer to the edge. These are not scars but parts of the skin that were moved and flexed while the horse was still alive. Of course jackets wouldn't be cost effective if only the very center piece was used... The jacket will develop more grain the more you wear it and the grainy panels will sort of blend in. This is NOT a quality issue but part of the whole FQHH deal! As the hide doesn't have a spray finish on top it doesn't hide its grain (no pun intended). Honestly, this is how your jacket should be!!

2. A good jacket usually consists of an internal stitch construction and an external construction called "top stitch". On the outside you only see the top stitching wich adds strength to the whole jacket. But this is not what mainly holds the jacket together. All panels are held together by internal seams which are covered by the lining. The seam on your sleeve that appears to be just rolled and glued has two interlocking internal seams that are rock solid. The glue is only used as a temporary means to keep the sleeve panels from falling apart in the process of manufacturing. FQHH is a very heavy and resilient hide that has to be hammered into shape. BTW: Temporary glueing dates back to wartime flight jackets...

Don't worry, you've got a quality jacket there!!
 

Dav

One Too Many
Messages
1,706
Location
Somerset, England
Hi L'oreille
I think I read somewhere that Aero guarantees their stitching so you should be able to return it if at some point it fails, bare in mind though that I don't think they would guarantee something that was expected to fail.
 
Messages
15,563
Location
East Central Indiana
Owning quite a few Aero jackets myself...Highwayman...several '30s HalfBelts...and Bootlegger in heavy FQHH..I wholeheartly agree with Jan. Not to worry. You've a got a very rugged well made HH jacket. Congatulations,L'oreille..!
HD
 

l'oreille

New in Town
Messages
32
Location
Belgium
Thank you for your replies, gentlemen. I must admit that I was betting on two horses at once here, i.e. I sent the exact same questions to Amanda at Aero. She just got back to me with a reply, basically confirming everything posted in this thread so far – that the jerky horsehide is in no way weaker or less resilient than the smooth hide; and that the glue is a residue of the production process, but serves no purposes whatsoever in holding the jacket together. I must say I’m pleasantly surprised both by Aero’s customer service (few firms would get back to me on such a silly question so quickly – three cheers for Amanda indeed!) as well as by the knowledge found on these boards. I’m looking forward to posting my future Long Halfbelt order on this forum over the weekend for suggestions and criticisms – it’s a pleasure to finally be posting on this forum, instead of lurking in the darkness.
 

GriffDeLaGriff

One Too Many
Messages
1,203
Location
Sweden
I also have a "mismatched" panels jacket.
At first I didn´t like it so much, but the creases of the jerky side has been smoothing out and the smoothness of the smooth side have become more wrinkled. I dont think its gonna be so much difference after worn more. Someone also told me here that its proof that the leather is of good quality.

Here is pictures:
5.jpg

6.jpg

Look at the very front of the arm on the last picture, its looking more and more like the other arm and this is just
a coupple of months use.

I love my jacket.
Here is a full pic:
Click-Click

I would love to see fit-pics of your jacket.
 

l'oreille

New in Town
Messages
32
Location
Belgium
Hi Griff, that's a great-looking highwayman. The jerky panel on my Bootlegger is even more dramatic than your sleeves, I think. I'll try and take some pictures of it on Saturday or Sunday - it might take a bit of fiddling with the timer-function of my digital camera though.
 

Mojo1975

Sponsoring Affiliate
Messages
321
Location
Seattle, WA
Your concerns are what make Aero leathers such sought after products. They aren't the jackets at the mall. They're going to have some variation in the hide. They're stitched just like the jackets of old and will therefore have some signs that fallible, yet skilled, human hands actually constructed the garment! What you've got is what makes the jacket worth money!
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
25,111
Location
London, UK
Well, nothing more for me to add here..... except that, having taking advantage of this collective expertise, you are now obligated to post a picture of you in said Bootlegger.... ;) I have four Aero jackets to date (Steer Black MC; FQHH Brown 30s Halfbelt; Goat AN6552; Goat A2; did also briefly own a horse ANJ3, bought used, too small - the 42 in a USN jacket is definitely neater than the A2, but in an ANJ3 it was like having a whole size down!), and they're all fantastic. I love the variable grain pattern on the FQHH - reminds me of my very first leather (a steer mc style when I was 15), which had a big difference between the two lapels.... it's an organic look. Anything too uniform looks, well, artificial to my eye. The Bootlegger is one of the real stars in Aero's line, to my mind - that bit more distinct than anything else in the market. I've seen some great variations on it, too - one which dispensed with the top pocket and had much, much larger lapels. Based on a photograph of a pp jacket worn by a WW2 RAF pilot in N Africa, according to the owner. Mine is in FQHH, with wool tartan lining. I added a zip to the top pocket, 30s halfbelt button cuffs, and a throat latch. Cordovan in colour. I love it. One of my future Aero plans is a real custom variation on the Bootlegger.... watch this space as soon as I have the money! :rolleyes: lol
 

Mojo1975

Sponsoring Affiliate
Messages
321
Location
Seattle, WA
Well, nothing more for me to add here..... except that, having taking advantage of this collective expertise, you are now obligated to post a picture of you in said Bootlegger.... ;) I have four Aero jackets to date (Steer Black MC; FQHH Brown 30s Halfbelt; Goat AN6552; Goat A2; did also briefly own a horse ANJ3, bought used, too small - the 42 in a USN jacket is definitely neater than the A2, but in an ANJ3 it was like having a whole size down!), and they're all fantastic. I love the variable grain pattern on the FQHH - reminds me of my very first leather (a steer mc style when I was 15), which had a big difference between the two lapels.... it's an organic look. Anything too uniform looks, well, artificial to my eye. The Bootlegger is one of the real stars in Aero's line, to my mind - that bit more distinct than anything else in the market. I've seen some great variations on it, too - one which dispensed with the top pocket and had much, much larger lapels. Based on a photograph of a pp jacket worn by a WW2 RAF pilot in N Africa, according to the owner. Mine is in FQHH, with wool tartan lining. I added a zip to the top pocket, 30s halfbelt button cuffs, and a throat latch. Cordovan in colour. I love it. One of my future Aero plans is a real custom variation on the Bootlegger.... watch this space as soon as I have the money! :rolleyes: lol

Edward,
That sounds like one badass jacket! Even if it's a repost, do you have pictures of it? Again, sounds pretty damn sweet!
 

Bonneville

One of the Regulars
Messages
173
Location
Canada
Custom Bootlegger

Edward you have to give us a description of your upcoming custom Bootlegger. Can't mention that and just leave us hanging man!

I am going to order a Bootlegger after my Enfield finally shows up (hopefully before I kick off).
However after 3 months consideration I still am unable to make the choice between the brown FQHH and the brown oil pull FQHH Bootlegger. I know someone posted a pic of their brown oil pull Bootlegger a while back (am trying to find it again). It really looked fabulous.

As I mentioned elsewhere:
I'm a fan of creasing etc., - when I received my samples of the oil pull and the regular fqhh I gave both pieces 20 minutes of vigorous bending, folding and twisting. They looked/felt quite similar at the outset (which really surprised me, thought they would look/feel quite diff.) but after the artificial break in the reg. fqhh was really creased/grained whereas the oil pull was almost the same as when I started, surprisingly little change at all. This leads me to believe that an oil pull jacket would take quite a lot of wearing in to get that 'broken in' look compared to the reg. fqhh jacket. Just thought that was really interesting.

Anyway as noted I am unable to decide between them, the pic. of the oil pull Bootlegger I mentioned really looked fabulous though.
 

WalkingBoy

Familiar Face
Messages
78
Location
Sydney, Australia
I'm not a fan of mismatching grain. (ducks for cover) I understand the desire for authenticity, and in using all of the hide for cost and other reasons, smooth and jerky sections alike, but I think if you're going to the trouble ( or joy) of ordering a custom piece, then surely it wouldn't matter. Even though I'm a great believer in being true to the original methods of making, I'm not sold on the idea of mismatched grain on jackets. A bit of a contradiction I know, so maybe I'm not a true believer.
I've read about the 'mismatching' issue before on Aero's before on this forum.
For me it's the opposite of Edwards point. Consistency of 'grain' i.e. smoothness, is the thing that makes the jacket attractive. And if FQHH is used, chances are it won't look like a 'mall' offering. I love the wearing in that creasing and folding creates, but the mushy overly grainy sections detracts from the look of the piece.
I have an Aero highwayman Black steerhide and I've handled a few FQHH Aero's and I share his initial concerns. The variable grain is very noticeable.
It's most pronounced on side panels, pits...even the underside of cuffs vary markedly. Visually it's unappealing. The jacket can look a bit like a patch work. Sometimes the natural grain runs counter to the wear created by creasing and folding.
I compared this to the few horsehide jackets I have from the 40's and 50's and there's nowhere near the differentiation in graining. Sure there's lots of normal wear caused by creasing and stretching which you'd expect, and its created a beautiful and rich patina over time, but mismatched grain is another matter.

Next winter I'm hoping to order a 'Grizzly' from Aero, once I have the money, and the specs will be specific about using only smooth Horsehide, and not the 'mushy' or jerky bits for the smaller panels. It's got to be consistent. Hopefully the guys at Aero will understand and be accommodating.
 

JLStorm

Practically Family
Messages
608
Location
Pennsylvania
mismatched grain is one of my favorite parts of quality jackets. I didnt think to ask for it on my steerhide jacket, but thankfully, thats what I got. Anyway, its just cool, its about being a real hide. Its along the same lines with the patina of a hide, no matter how smooth or rough the grain, the jacket will look different from one inch to another, especially their horse hides. If you are into perfect symmetry than a natural material really isnt for you. Yes, the buttery smooth $2,000.00 cowhide jackets in your upscale department stores are processed to look identical from one panel to another, but its all just processing or shearing off the top of the hide. Nothing is unique about it, its just plain old boring IMO.

As far as strength Aero FQHH and heavy steerhide are guaranteed against tears in the hide itself and the seams for life. The zippers are also guaranteed for life.
 

WalkingBoy

Familiar Face
Messages
78
Location
Sydney, Australia
Perfect symmetry isn't what I suggested...just a bit of consistency, and that's not an absolute, nor should it be for everyone. It's a personal preference, and when you customise a jacket, what part of the hide you want to use or not - can be part of the process. It's all part of hand selection. This doesn't preclude it being a quality jacket, however.
 

OneEyeMan

Practically Family
Messages
550
Location
United States
WalkingBoy,
I'm kinda in your boat with respect to mismatching hides.
I have a brown FQHH Highwayman and it has mismatching panels.
However, in Aero's defense, I'm not sure they can tell with new hides if one piece will end up smooth, while another will end up jerky.
I think wear really brings out the jerky nature of a smooth hide.
Just my $.02
Lenny
 

JLStorm

Practically Family
Messages
608
Location
Pennsylvania
Perfect symmetry isn't what I suggested...just a bit of consistency, and that's not an absolute, nor should it be for everyone. It's a personal preference, and when you customise a jacket, what part of the hide you want to use or not - can be part of the process. It's all part of hand selection. This doesn't preclude it being a quality jacket, however.

Sorry, I wasnt replying to your post, I was replying to the OP. I have my b3 fully overlayed in smooth horse and it looks identical from panel to panel, but the patina is really nice from the veg tanning. You can ask for less grainy skins in any of their leathers so there is less mis matching, but its never going to be as similar as leather processed to look the identical like you see in the dept. stores. The smooth horse is probably your best bet, but you lost all the grain really, which is why it matches.

WalkingBoy,
I'm kinda in your boat with respect to mismatching hides.
I have a brown FQHH Highwayman and it has mismatching panels.
However, in Aero's defense, I'm not sure they can tell with new hides if one piece will end up smooth, while another will end up jerky.
I think wear really brings out the jerky nature of a smooth hide.
Just my $.02
Lenny

They can. When they get it its already tanned and its clear to see what is what. But the the more specific they get in the grain, the more waste pieces they will have from tossing out unmatching parts and the more cost prohibitive it will be. I would imagine the internal costs would be 2x or more if they were to get really picky with matching hides both due to waste pieces and the time it takes. Not only would they have to match hides for color and thickness like they do now, but they would have to match the grain from multiple hides. I really think most people that order from them wouldnt like this, since most are going for that handmade, hand sourced, vintage look. I myself dont care about vintage, but I really like seeing the natural variance from one panel to another or even within panels like my steerhide. Im sure if yo uare willing to pay, the would be willing to find matching hides. Hell, Aero might not even charge more...they do the strangest requests for free. Or at least they used too, I have noticed they are a little more cognizant of requests that will require extra work these days.
 

JLStorm

Practically Family
Messages
608
Location
Pennsylvania
I thought they still got horse from Horween? You know on that last one, you could have returned it and asked for a thicker hide if it was really that much thinner than you are used too, especially since you have past orders to compare it too. They would have remade a jacket for free. They did hire some new people the last few years, but Ive always had Will make and tailer my jackets, as he does most of the highly customized work still from what I can tell.
 

randooch

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,869
Location
Ukiah, California
L'oreille, welcome. I can't weigh in on the jacket issues, but I can compliment you on your command of English! Fourth language, indeed. Very impressive. Keep it up and you can join the ranks of Conrad, Nabokov, et al. Enjoy the lounge!
 

l'oreille

New in Town
Messages
32
Location
Belgium
Thanks for the kind words, randooch. I'm still a long way off from both Conrad and Nabokov, but I get a bit of solace knowing that Conrad didn't even start learning English until his late twenties. Who knows, maybe in another 20 years or so I'll come up with a new "Lord Jim"...

Johann: interesting that you should mention that you found Aero's horsehide "too thin", because that's kind of a major issue others have with Aero. I've seen several people, across a variety of boards (including this one), mention that their FQHH is too heavy and too thick to be "accurate" - that is, it is much heavier than what you'd find in vintage jackets. I also have a hard time imagining that a jacket made out of leather that's even thicker than the FQHH my bootlegger is made of would still be practical. That's one concern that a lot of Lost Worlds customers seem to come across: the LW leather is so thick it starts blurring the line between a jacket and a piece of armor.

I think it comes down to why you want the leather to be heavy. Me, I like the feel of the weight, and the fact that it's durable and will last me a couple of years. If you're a hardcore biker, and you want your jacket to provide the kind of protection you'd need when you go down at 100 km/h, you might want something thicker than Aero's FQHH. But then again: Schott jackets are considered to be "proper" riding gear by several of my biker-friends, and every Schott I've ever handled had far thinner leather than my Aero. (I think Schott's leather might be more comparable to Aero's midweight leather, but I'm not entirely sure about that one.)
 

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