Collar rolling/square shoulder problem

[Roll2me]

Hi all,

My Schott 573 and premier HWM has collar rolling problem which I believe due to my shoulder are very flat/less slope. Does anyone have same problem? What jacket fit model/cut do you recommend for such problem? I don’t think Made to Measure will accommodate this adjustment, right?

I upload the neck/collar picture of my 573

and premier HWM as references (unzipped)

(Zipped)

The pwhm has less bunching/rolling due to more squarish shoulder I believe but shown abit worse when zipped

 

[navetsea]

if you popped up the collar it is more like to happen, the top the the collar being pushed down by the back of your head, your creases behind the collar there is very normal, bound to happen if for example you ride a bike body lunging fwd, I just arrange a little when it starts creasing to make it a horizontal and not crooked diagonally

 

[Marc mndt]

In Dutch this is called a 'kraagplooi'. I don't know the English term but it roughly translates to 'collar pleat'. It is indeed caused by relatively high/square shoulders:

It can be addressed by removing the excess material underneath the collar (the collar has to be completely taken off and then reattached ).

With a sportscoat or suit jacket this is a fairly common alteration which can be done after a suit is made. I don't know whether this is a feasible alteration on a leather jacket. But I'm positive this issue can easily be addressed when going bespoke.

 

[jonbuilder]

One of the things I love about TFL the wealth of knowledge and sharing of ideas

 

[Jin431]

That's some wealth of knowledge there @navetsea! If you didn't share that I would have just said "I think so long as you don't pop your collars up it should not be noticeable, no?"

 

[navetsea]

That's some wealth of knowledge there @navetsea! If you didn't share that I would have just said "I think so long as you don't pop your collars up it should not be noticeable, no?"

if you fold down the collar the fold of the collar is covering the fold if there is one, and less likely to happen. sometime when the sleeve pitch is rotated forward, when the arm is down the back of the neck hole is also hitting the back of your neck a bit and might cause a little crease there you see sometime band collar on CR jacket seems to hit/ dig into the back of the neck more when worn off bike, but on the bike with your arm up the neck hole wont be gaping backward allowing rain water into your back, and choking your adam's apple etc. so there is a plus to that for the purpose as riding jacket.

 

[Jin431]

Wow, I tried that with my cafe racer and I think I get what you mean. Now that's a lot to consider when designing a well made functional jacket! Thanks man

 

[Roll2me]

In Dutch this is called a 'kraagplooi'. I don't know the English term but it roughly translates to 'collar pleat'. It is indeed caused by relatively high/square shoulders:
View attachment 295589

It can be addressed by removing the excess material underneath the collar (the collar has to be completely taken off and then reattached ).
View attachment 295591

With a sportscoat or suit jacket this is a fairly common alteration which can be done after a suit is made. I don't know whether this is a feasible alteration on a leather jacket. But I'm positive this issue can easily be addressed when going bespoke.

Thanks. This is exactly what I read as well. The neck collar rolling is not only when the collar is up. I made it up just to show the obvious. Putting the collar down hide it a little but it still rolling up.

I think this issue will be even worse with mandarin collar and high slope like Schott 641 which I believe same base pattern like 573 but with mandarin collar.

About alteration, in normal suit, yes, it’s easily altered but does anyone have real experience fixing this issue with thick leather jacket?

Or maybe some jacket patter that suitable for this kind of shoulder?

 

[willyto]

Have a read here about that problem:https://www.styleforum.net/threads/...ion-suggestions.265924/page-604#post-10527852

The response of Despos who's a very good Tailor and is always helping guys:

Two main causes of the under collar roll.

In this picture it is from tension across the shoulder blades.

Look at the back and divide the area from sleeve to sleeve in thirds. You see two vertical , darker lines. These are impressions from the shoulder blade. The center third is a “hollow” area between the blades. The incorrect fix is to let out the center back making it looser. It doesn’t work because the line of the center back needs to be straight over the hollow area. Letting it out makes it curved and it just becomes sloppy. There was an example of this with a jacket AlanB had with this issue.

If the tailor says to square the shoulder and lower the collar when the cause is tension over the blades, the fix makes things worse. Wrong approach to correct the roll

The correct way is to open the shoulders and work in extra fullness to cover the blades and decrease the tension. A few more steps than that but want to keep things simple.



The more common cause is shoulder slope.

Your shoulders have a fixed line of slope from neck to end of your shoulder. The jacket shoulder should run parallel to your physical shoulder line. When the jacket slope is more than the line of your physical shoulder, the neck point at the collar lifts away. If from neck to shoulder point the grade of slope is 1” but the jacket slope is 1.5”, that .5” difference is the roll of cloth you see. The fix is to open the shoulder and square the back shoulder .5”.

There are limits to how much can be altered in both scenarios.

I wouldn't even giv it a seocnd thought, it's a leather jacket and not a suit jacket, you'll have to deal with it, no one will notice, not even you unless you take fit pics and go looking for it.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I wouldn't even giv it a seocnd thought, it's a leather jacket and not a suit jacket, you'll have to deal with it, no one will notice, not even you unless you take fit pics and go looking for it.

I think this is right.

 

[navetsea]

Thanks. This is exactly what I read as well. The neck collar rolling is not only when the collar is up. I made it up just to show the obvious. Putting the collar down hide it a little but it still rolling up.

I think this issue will be even worse with mandarin collar and high slope like Schott 641 which I believe same base pattern like 573 but with mandarin collar.

About alteration, in normal suit, yes, it’s easily altered but does anyone have real experience fixing this issue with thick leather jacket?

Or maybe some jacket patter that suitable for this kind of shoulder?

I have a horizontal bar kind of shoulder 0 angle, but I like sloping shoulder on jacket, so I have some degree of that dimple on the back of the collar on every one of them, I poke around the diagonal line so it is just a dimple and more symmetrical.
wearing a thick turtleneck, denim jacket, or perhaps scarf under your jacket around your neck might reduce the creasing giving more support to bridge to the jacket's sloped shoulder.

alteration like that would need a new collar, the old one would be too short, leaving a gap on the base of the collar on the front I think.

 

[Roll2me]

Thanks all