Coat of Arms or Family Crests

[Viola]

As long as you don't take the strip-mall crests as canonical history, what's the harm in an interest in geneology, or in designing a coat of arms that harkens back to the historic conventions?

I mean I'm the furthest thing from an ethnic Briton, but I like family history, and from a militaria-historic standpoint heraldry is interesting.

 

[Pyroxene]

Why in heaven's name would anyone in this day and age give a tinker's damn about so-called "family" coats of arms or crests, other than as an historic curiosity? ... WHO CARES?!

Here's why. I couldn't say it any better.

"Having read that a coat of arms or “crest” is only something for “old” families, many Americans believe that only snobs or the aristocracy have an interest in heraldry. That is not the case. Instead, American heraldry is for anyone who has a certain respect for themselves and their heritage.” - An American Heraldic Primer, Philip D. Blanton, MA.

Respect for themselves and their heritage is, to me, one of the pillars of this forum. No other forum that I can find reaches for historical accuracy more than this one. We look at which hat goes with the best suit. We debate weaves per inch and who make the most historically accurate shoe.

We should ask not who cares but who wouldn't?

 

[Ethan Bentley]

A rough interpretation:
White and Black with a Chief Divide: Peace & Serenity, Constancy, Dominion & Authority.
Lion Passant Guardant: Lion of England, Doubtless courage.
White Roundels: Generosity.

All in good fun but this springs to mind:

"I've seen hundreds of smart people from the City, industry, politics - famous people I've been quite frightened to meet when they walked into this room. But when it comes to snobbery, to buying respectability so to speak... they dwindle and dwindle in front of you... until they are no bigger than homunculi.

And the women are even worse. The idea of suddenly becoming 'a lady' in their small community is so intoxicating that the way they bare their soul is positively obscene."

Sable Basilisk of the College of Arms from Ian Fleming's On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

 

[MisterCairo]

Here's why. I couldn't say it any better.

"Having read that a coat of arms or “crest” is only something for “old” families, many Americans believe that only snobs or the aristocracy have an interest in heraldry. That is not the case. Instead, American heraldry is for anyone who has a certain respect for themselves and their heritage.” - An American Heraldic Primer, Philip D. Blanton, MA.

Respect for themselves and their heritage is, to me, one of the pillars of this forum. No other forum that I can find reaches for historical accuracy more than this one. We look at which hat goes with the best suit. We debate weaves per inch and who make the most historically accurate shoe.

We should ask not who cares but who wouldn't?

I wouldn't.

My family name goes back hundreds of years. Am I related to Sir Walter Raleigh? I don't know, and I don't care. Neither I nor my daughters will be any better for being so related, nor any worse for not being related.

I am actually VERY interested in my own family history and geneology, and I have the greatest respect for my family, thank you all very much, but here's the key point: My family history has to do with my family's traditions, ways of raising children, love of Queen and country, military service, and civic duty.

My family history is my mother's father dying over France in 1944, my father fighting in North Africa in 1942 and up the Italian peninsula in 1943. My great grandfather being killed in action near Ypres in the first world war, my parents emigrating to Canada in the 40s and 50s.

It is my great grandfather being awarded the Order of the British Empire for service to Empire in the middle east, after having been imprisoned by the Turks during the occupation of Mesopotamia (Iraq) during the First World War. My mother's great uncle being hanged for stealing a sheep.

It's family's traditions being remembered and practised and brought to the attention of those being raised.

It has nothing to do with a silly crest or coat of arms, official or otherwise! For those of you for whom your identity is proved worthy by such symbolism, good for you!

Sorry, but I couldn't care less. I know who I am and where I came from, and have a great sense of respect for my family, without the need for some ridiculous seal of approval granted by a collage of lions rampant on azure fields surrounded by boars heads and garlands.

And as for the ludicrous suggestion that this forum dictates rigid adherence to historical "accuracy", I ask - if one doesn't have an official family crest, is one less historically accurate? Illegitimate? As for American ideas of family, if you care whether or not you came from the Mayflower landing, or not, or for British ideas of nobility and whether or not your crest comes from the grant of 1315 passed down using primogeniture, I say again: WHO CARES?

And where exactly is it written in the FL rules of procedure or etiquette that to appreciate all things vintage one must be a slave to historical accuracy?

 

[LordBest]

Yet, as strange as it may seem, others feel differently about heraldry. Who are you to judge it worthless simply because you do not care for it?

For my part, I find heraldry interesting for how it was used, the elements it consists of and how certain ideas were disseminated through it to a largely illiterate population. I certainly do not need it to make me think my family is 'worthy' of anything. Remember for many centuries heraldry was used the same way we would use a signature today, to indicate and authenticate ones identity. It is a perfectly legitimate avenue of historical study with an artistic element, is it any wonder it fascinates people.

 

[LaMedicine]

Japanese family crests

It's interesting to read all the whatnots of (European) coat of arms and heraldry.

Every Japanese family has a family crest, and are still very much in daily use.Though they are basically they are passed down along the male line, in some cases, there are crests that are passed exclusively down the female line. Also, though in general, married women are expected to use their husband's crest upon marriage, they can use the crest of the family they were born into, especially with any of her personal belongings that were prepared for her before her marriage but this also varies, and often, parents prepare their daughters' trousseau with the grooms' crest.

Japanese family crests came into being originally as marks crafted onto personal effects of the aristocracy to indicate ownership, with the history going back over a thousand years. These symbols evolved into family symbols over the ages to differentiate the various clans originating from high families, then spread to the emerging samurai class, and the affluent common class eventually picking up the custom to indicate their family/clan which in turn spread to the less affluent commoners. Especially in the Edo (1603-1868) era, the common class were not permitted official/formal use of their family names, so the people indicated their relationship through the use of crests. These are called mon紋-crest- or kamon家紋-family crest- in Japanese, and are very simple motifs, often of natural objects such as plants, tree leaves, animals, fish, birds and butterflies as well as simple daily objects.

Though the custom of marking one's personal belongings, or some precious family heirlooms with them is no longer common save for the Imperial family, the use of kamon on kimonos is very much alive today, and in fact, whether the kimono bears kamon, and how many are placed, defines how formal the kimono is. This is called mon-tsuki, marked with mon. Itsutsu-mon, 5 mon is the most formal, with the mon placed high in the middle of the back, and one each on the back side of the sleeves, and one each high on the chest. Next comes the mitsu-mon, 3 mon, on the back and the back sleeves, and hitotsu-mon one mon on the back being the least formal. Itsutsu mon kimonos are for the most formal events, on par with white tie to black tie events at the Imperial palace, and worn at weddings--especially family of the bride and groom, recipients of honor decorations, as well as mourning kimonos which are required to be itsusu-mon. Mitsu-mon is fine for black tie, but considered not formal enough for white tie. Guests of weddings may wear mistu-mon or hitotsu-mon kimonos, but with the casualization of wedding parties themselves, this rule has become more relaxed. Formal tea ceremonies also require montsuki kimonos, though usually, hitotsu-mon is sufficient. This rule applies to both male and female kimonos.

This is my mother's kuro(black)-tomesode, the most formal kimono for married women, and of course is itsutsu-mon. The white dots across the back are the kamon on the backside.

Front of the tomesode. The white dots just below and inside the shoulders are the front kamon.

My maiden (my father's) family's crest. Maru ni Kikyo--Balloon flower in a circle.

Variations of Kikyo mon.

My husband's family crest. Katabami--clover and its variations. My husband's is the top right mon.

My mother's (maiden) family crest. Tsuta--Japanese ivy and its variations. Top right mon is used by her family.

(from 「まるわかり日本の家紋」by 丹羽基二)

There are no legal regulations, nor the need to officially register one's kamon. If you fancy, you can change your mon, even, or create something of your own, but considering that it has been passed on down for genrations by many, and the custom still is that family tombs are engraved with kamon, not many people attempt to change their mon drastically. The most they might do, is use the mon from their maternal line rather than the paternal line.

 

[MisterCairo]

Yet, as strange as it may seem, others feel differently about heraldry. Who are you to judge it worthless simply because you do not care for it?

For my part, I find heraldry interesting for how it was used, the elements it consists of and how certain ideas were disseminated through it to a largely illiterate population. I certainly do not need it to make me think my family is 'worthy' of anything. Remember for many centuries heraldry was used the same way we would use a signature today, to indicate and authenticate ones identity. It is a perfectly legitimate avenue of historical study with an artistic element, is it any wonder it fascinates people.

I judge it worthless because the last time I checked, in Canada we have the right to freedom of thought and expression. I ask no one to agree with me. It is my opinion, I expressed it in a forum on the subject, and that it differs from yours gives you no right to judge me.

Or is it that what's good for you (expressing your opinion) is not good enough for me?

 

[LordBest]

An excellent introduction to another cultures heraldric tradition, thank you!

It's interesting to read all the whatnots of (European) coat of arms and heraldry.

Every Japanese family has a family crest, and are still very much in daily use.Though they are basically they are passed down along the male line, in some cases, there are crests that are passed exclusively down the female line. Also, though in general, married women are expected to use their husband's crest upon marriage, they can use the crest of the family they were born into, especially with any of her personal belongings that were prepared for her before her marriage but this also varies, and often, parents prepare their daughters' trousseau with the grooms' crest.

Japanese family crests came into being originally as marks crafted onto personal effects of the aristocracy to indicate ownership, with the history going back over a thousand years. These symbols evolved into family symbols over the ages to differentiate the various clans originating from high families, the spread to the emerging samurai class, and the affluent common class eventually picking up the custom to indicate their family/clan which in turn spread to the less affluent commoners. Especially in the Edo (1603-1868) era, the common class were not permitted official/formal use of their family names, so the people indicated their relationship through the use of crests. These are called mon紋-crest- or kamon家紋-family crest- in Japanese, and are very simple motifs, often of natural objects such as plants, tree leaves, animals, fish, birds and butterflies as well as simple daily objects.

Though the custom of marking one's personal belongings, or some precious family heirlooms with them, the use of kamon on kimonos is very much alive today, and in fact, whether the kimono bears kamon, and how many are placed, defines how formal the kimono is. This is called mon-tsuki, marked with mon. Itsutsu-mon, 5 mon is the most formal, with the mon placed high in the middle of the back, and one each on the back side of the sleeves, and one each high on the chest. Next comes the mitsu-mon, 3 mon, on the back and the back sleeves, and hitotsu-mon one mon on the back being the least formal. Itsutsu mon kimonos are for the most formal events, on par with white tie to black tie events at the Imperial palace, and worn at weddings--especially family of the bride and groom, recipients of honor decorations, as well as mourning kimonos which are required to be itsusu-mon. Mitsu-mon is fine for black tie, but considered not formal enough for white tie. Guests of weddings may wear mistu-mon or hitotsu-mon kimonos, but with the casualization of wedding parties themselves, this rule has become more relaxed. Formal tea ceremonies also require montsuki kimonos, though usually, hitotsu-mon is sufficient. This rule applies to both male and female kimonos.

This is my mother's kuro(black)-tomesode, the most formal kimono for women, and of course is itsutsu-mon. The white dots across the back are the kamon on the backside.

Front of the tomesode. The white dots just below and inside the shoulders are the front kamon.

My maiden (my father's) family's crest. Maru ni Kikyo--Balloon flower in a circle.

Variations of Kikyo mon.

My husband's family crest. Katabami--clover and its variations. My husband's is the top right mon.

My mother's (maiden) family crest. Tsuta--Japanese ivy and its variations. Top right mon is used by her family.

(from 「まるわかり日本の家紋」by 丹羽基二)

There are no legal regulations, nor no need to officially register one's kamon. If you fancy, you can change your mon, even, or create something of your own, but considering that it has been passed on down for genrations by many, and the custom still is that family tombs are engraved with kamon, not many people attempt to change their mon drastically. The most they might do, is use the mon from their maternal line rather than the paternal line.

 

[Foofoogal]

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

LaMedicine. That is the most fascinating thing I have read on the internet in a very long time. Fabulous.
My ?'s would be what type of items would have the family crest on them and would one ever see vintage items for sale with the family crest of different families? May be silly ? but I find this amazing.

Your kimono is gorgeous and I love your site with the different ones. Thank you very much.

 

[LaMedicine]

My ?'s would be what type of items would have the family crest on them and would one ever see vintage items for sale with the family crest of different families?

Obviously, the most abundant are kimonos. You see many of them on eBay. Men's haori--kimono jackets often have kamon on them. Also women's tomesode, which have motifs only below the waist line, or mourning kimonos in which case it is black without any motifs save for the kamon. You need to be careful with ebay sellers, since most seem to be unable to differentiate between a tomesode and a mourning kimono. I have seen numerous mourning kimonos listed as tomesode.

Other than kimonos, likely items would be japans--laquer ware-- trays, plates, bowls, shallow sake cups.
This is a set of laquer ware for sake for special celebrations like New Year or marriage ceremonies. This example has only regular motifs, but a crested one will be plain with crests on each item in the set.

Other likely things would be laquered stationary boxes, things for grooming like mirrors, combs, ornamental hairpins (in which case, silver is often the material of choice) etc.
Laquered stationary box. It may be plain with just the crest in the center, or with motifs with the crest incorporated into the design.

Example of a kanzashi, ornamental hair pin. This is an inexpensive modern one, but antique/vintages are usually silver. The flat surface is where the crests would be carved. It can be carved the way this one is, or, it can be open work, and I think most of the antiques are openwork. The motif of this one is actually a butterfly crest.

Other items you may run across are cotton covers for furniture such as chests and bureaus that brides bring with them upon their marriage. These covers are often deep blue or purple with a very large kamon of her own family dyed in the middle. Noren--split (store) entrance curtains sometimes have a large kamon of the owner family dyed in the middle.

Also, some antique chests have metal work crest nailed onto them.

You need to keep in mind that many crested personal items such as the laquered ones will probably be pretty expensive if you find it on the market, as they are order made artwork that only the affluent could afford. Most are passed down through the family as heirlooms, or prepared as part of the trousseau for daughters of the aristocrats, samurai lords, rich merchants, and princesses of the Imperial family. Much of them would be worthy enough to be museum pieces, and also probably traceable to the original families, if one put enough effort into it. Some crests are more common than other crests, so less easy to trace, but some of the unique ones are used by only a few families, which would be easier to trace.

 

[Pyroxene]

Every Japanese family has a family crest, and are still very much in daily use.Though they are basically they are passed down along the male line, in some cases, there are crests that are passed exclusively down the female line.

Fascinating study. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Shangas]

If nobody minds, I thought I'd put an Asian twist on this thread.

I recently got my name-chop safely home! It was a present from my mother. Here it is:

The slip of paper on the right was the display-mark, made by the chop-engraver. The mark on the left is the one which I made myself, onto regular writing-paper.

 

[Opas Coat]

My Mothers side:

Her maiden name is Dornbusch, and her father/ name is from Germany. IIRC Dornbusch was a privateer for a German King. Its hard to find information in English on google. My Opas brother discovered this out after looking in to his family history/ crest back in the 80's.

My Fathers side is apparently swan emerging from a golden crown, there is another version with diamonds in a sheild, Its been a wile since I read the paper but The furthest back I can trace my family is 1610 in Newfoundland Canada. http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cupids.html .

 

[The Wolf]

I have often thought of making my personal family crest that would combine my family crest with my wifes family crest and some changes. On her mother's side the motto was "Resolve and persevere". I always liked that.

Sincerely,
The Wolf

 

[DannyBoy]

LaMedicine - How difficult would it be to search for a certain mon for a family in Japan? My grandmother's side of the family has no record of what our mon was since my great-grandparent's died, and we probably lost contact with any relatives there back in the 50's. I've been officially tasked by my family with trying to find out what it was and I have no idea where to start :eusa_doh: .
Also thanks for posting the great information on mons and their use. Hopefully someday I can visit Japan and get a kimono with my family's mon on it.

Luckily I DO know what my mon passed down from the male line is:

Maru Ni Ken Katabami - Wood Sorrel With Swords in Circle

 

[Pyroxene]

Marshalling

I have often thought of making my personal family crest that would combine my family crest with my wifes family crest and some changes. On her mother's side the motto was "Resolve and persevere". I always liked that.

Sincerely,
The Wolf

That's called Marshalling of Arms. The guidelines for heraldic practice in the United States should give you a good place to start.

http://americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Guide.Guidelines#toc8

 

[LaMedicine]

LaMedicine - How difficult would it be to search for a certain mon for a family in Japan? <snip>
Luckily I DO know what my mon passed down from the male line is:
Maru Ni Ken Katabami

Kenkatabami is one of the most popular kamon. Incidentally, so are the 3 that I have claim to.
To find which kamon on your grandmother's side, family name and the region they came from will help. If they came from a small town or village, there's the possibility that family graves are still in their original hometown. Since traditional Japanese tombstones have the family crest carved into the stone, if you know where the family grave is, then you should be able to find which kamon by visiting the graves. Also, this is going to need some connections and knowhow, but we Japanese have central family registration--we are all registered as family at a certain address called honseki, and usually, these registars are left in our hometowns, rather than move with every move we make, and when people die, they are crossed off the registars and their information removed to the josekibo, deceased/removed registar, which is kept permanently. For instance, my honseki before marriage was in my father's hometown where I have never lived, and upon marriage, moved to my husband's hometown, also a place I have never lived.
We have to make residency registration with the local towns where we live, which always carries the record of our honseki as well. So, if you know where your grandparents originally came from, you will most likely be able to find their records through proper routes, and probably find their decendants as well, who will be able to tell you which kamon, or at the least, you will know where to go, and maybe ask the locals if they know anything, or find the family grave, and voila!

Kimonos with kamon are ridiculously easy to get.
All you have to do is to order the type of kimono that kamon are used, and let the merchant know which one, and they will arrange for it to be painted onto the kimono. If you want a secondhand one because made to order kimonos are ridiculously expensive, then vist some kimono recycle shops and ask if they have any kimonos with the particular kamon in stock. There are some chain shops, so if you leave a request with them, they may let you know when one comes in.

 

[Cigarband]

I designed my own COA years ago when I was a member of SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism). A Trident Argent on a Field Vert (Silver Trident on a Forest Green Shield). But I never got around to choosing a motto, until a couple of years ago when one came to me in a dream. In it I was showing some people through my house and stopped to point out my COA on the wall above the fireplace, there for all to see(and me for the first time) was my Family motto, "To Hold Decency At Bay". I woke up laughing at this as I realized the meaning. "Decency" in this case means the priggish tyranny of conventional propriety, i.e. Mrs. Grundy and all her closest friends. Mr. and Mrs. Selfrighteous, the Bluenoses, the Naysayers, the
Censors, the Knowbetters, and the Scolds. And in Latin it's, UT PUDOR DETENTUS SIT.
What's your "Family Motto"?

 

[Pyroxene]

I designed my own COA years ago...

Do you have an a pic of it?

...I never got around to choosing a motto, until a couple of years ago when one came to me in a dream.

That's what I'm talking about. Now I have something to think about when I sleep. I'll need to keep a pad and paper next to my bed to be ready for it.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

This might or might not be right.