Coat arm holes, how high is high?

[Feraud]

Imagine if you will Feraud's avatar. Imagine if you will Feraud's avatar weighing 250 lbs, but with the same size/circumference armholes and sleeves. That would, in my view, not be a good look.

While I defer to the knowledge of a competent tailor, it seems to me that mass producers of suits (on this side of the Atlantic at least) make what they make (a boxy suit with large armholes) because that is what looks best on those who buy suits (that is to say, older, larger men, with a high ratio between the circumference of the body and the arm). This is accentuated on some relatively expensive mass produced suits, on the theory that those who can afford them are in fact older, larger men.

That is not to say that those with a different body shape might not benefit from a different style. On the other hand, it is a dubious process for anyone to seek from a tailor a style not suited to his actual shape.

Actually this is incorrect thinking.
Proper armhole construction is a benefit to the fit of a jacket no matter what your weight is. A heavy man looks great in a well cut suit. A heavy person should want the benefit of being able to move their arms in a jacket like anyone else. The discussion of armhole construction should not be confused with the idea of a garment as too tight or uncomfortable for large men.

With regards to suit production, suits in all sizes are made on the current bad (or should we say low/wide) armhole model. It is not exclusive to larger cut suits. The cut is not an age or economic issue.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Lone Ranger,

The sizing for suits in Metric is rather simple. It is based on the fact that only 1/2 the coat is patterned, since it is made symmetrically ( ie; left same as right, etc). They use 1/2 of the full chest measurement in centimeters as the grading dynamic.

example: a man with a US 38 inchs roughly equals 96 centimeters, divide this in half and you have a European size 48.

a US 44" chest is approx. 112 cm..divide by 2 = 56 Euro size

hope this helps

tom

Tom:

Thanks for the information. I was a bit confused, because the information I could find was saying to, "add 10," to the US suit size. Now, it makes sense. Convert Inches to Centimeters, then divide by two.

One more "fit" question for you. I'm trying to buy a rain coat from a company, in Germany. I normally wear a US size 46. A US cut coat has with low armholes, often means I require a tall size, to get sleeves long enough.

I managed to get a 'trial' coat, that is similar to the one I want to buy, in a size 56. The German cut coat, has high armholes. The sleeves fit well. The shoulders fit. But, it is tight in the front of the upper arm (bicep).

It's not a custom coat, I have to settle for off-the-rack sizes. Will going to a 58 fix that? Or is there something else to consider.

Thanks again!

 

[Richard Warren]

Of course a large man looks good in a well cut suit. I believe it error however to believe that a "well cut suit" means the same for a trim 20 year old and a typical not so trim 45 year old. To say that high arm holes are a design criteria for any well cut suit is to fall into the same trap as the matron who wants to buy a dress designed for size 2 models.

The goal of a tailor and a manufacturer is the same on one level: to make the customer look good. American manufacturers try to do this with large arm holes. I gather from this very thread that in some instances at least custom tailors do the same. Why not trust them?

 

[Feraud]

I believe you are misunderstanding what the armhole feature is.
It is not an aesthetic one that you can see and will flatter thin as opposed to heavy men.
It is feature of function that allows the wearer, or any height, age, income, or weight to comfortably wear and move in the jacket.

Once again, this is not about looks but of function.

 

[Tomasso]

I believe you are misunderstanding what the armhole feature is.
It is not an aesthetic one that you can see and will flatter thin as opposed to heavy men.
It is feature of function that allows the wearer, or any height, age, income, or weight to comfortably wear and move in the jacket.

Once again, this is not about looks but of function.

QFT

 

[Mr Mueller]

The short answer to the armhole question: Off the rack suits have a generic armhole (armscye). This is to accommodate not only differing shoulder sizes, but where your shoulder is located on your body (further front, further back). When you have a suit tailored to fit YOU, the tailor doesn't have to accommodate a generic armhole size to fit whomever might put the jacket on. Thus he can ensure perfect placement of the armscye on the wearer, which requires less armscye. Smaller armscye typically means higher armscye.

Does this make sense?

 

[Creeping Past]

Richard, it seems you're playing Devil's advocate and taking the part of the mass-market clothing people and, in doing so, taking a position against comfort. You also seem to be saying that they know best.

It's not that we're saying the large manufacturers and retailers are ill-willed and introducing misbegotten elements into clothing just beacuse they can. And I don't think we're saying that a jacket has to have a higher, more closely fitting armhole simply because that's the 'vintage' way and end of story. We're also not arguing for a world where skinny vintage guys rule. If you could see me, you'd understand that's definitely not on the agenda.

All we're doing is reminding the world that there's a different kind of cut to a jacket out there. The suit coat or sports coat doesn't have to be cut to the proportions of an overcoat to be comfortable and wearable.

 

[H.Johnson]

Forgive me for asking, but what does a man's age have to do with the fit of his suit?

<snip> I believe it error however to believe that a "well cut suit" means the same for a trim 20 year old and a typical not so trim 45 year old. <snip>

 

[filfoster]

Indy Scye

Indy Magnoli one time gave a specific measurement for the armhole circumference on his own suits he has made for him. I think it was 20", but I'm not certain about that.

I just received my first Magnoli suit a few days ago.(the 'Washington Suit', a db in charcoal pinstripe). I did not measure the circumference but the scye (thanks, Mr. Chevalier!) is as high as the WWII German uniforms made by Michael Janke, which are pretty high. That said, it is not uncomfortable and easily allows freedom of movement with a dress shirt underneath. I know he jobs these abroad but it's amazing how well-fitting this suit is. Yes, I know, the customers deserve some credit for furnishing good measurements: garbage in, garbage out.

 

[BellyTank]

Good to hear that he's observing these "vintage clothing"
requirements and has been able to get his manufacturers up
to speed on this issue!


B
T

 

[Richard Warren]

Mr. Johnson, it seems that is is my unhappy duty to tell you that men put on weight as they get older. (I have learned this from sad experience.) Since there is a correlation between age, income, suit wearing proclivities, and adipose tissue, mass marketers of suits engineer their products to suit a customer of a certain degree of, shall we say, gravitas. This results in what could be considered an excess of material in relation to shoulder width, including skirt-like waists and flabby pouches under the arms (which connect to the large, low arm holes) of modern mass produced suits. All this is very regrettable, but done for a reason.

And for that same reason, a man of a certain, shall we say, substance (of whatever age) might be advised to seek out those features in his own clothes (as opposed to those features which might have better suited, say, Fred Astaire, at any age).

 

[Mid-fogey]

Well...

...did Kilo November ever get his high armhole suit with regular and high waisted pants?

Pictures?

As a side note, I remember as a kid getting jackets with high arm holes, and our tailored cadet uniforms were the same way. At the time I didn't like them as they were annoying to put on and take off. I guess I didn't appreciate the freedom-of-movement difference.

 

[Creeping Past]

All this is very regrettable, but done for a reason./QUOTE]

The reason is cheapness of production more than garment construction for the comfort of the customer.

And for that same reason, a man of a certain, shall we say, substance (of whatever age) might be advised to seek out those features in his own clothes (as opposed to those features which might have better suited, say, Fred Astaire, at any age).

If those features include comfort, then go for a well-fitted garment, not one that fits where it touches.

It seems we've reached an impasse. And I'm guessing it won't be bridged without a practical demonstration, which at the remove of the internet is impossible. [huh]

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

...did Kilo November ever get his high armhole suit ...

I am awaiting the re-done coat. I have been told that it will ship next week. The usual transit time is three days.

I'll send an update immediately when it arrives.

 

[Feraud]

Any update?

 

[Trotsky]

I picked up a book "Tailoring Suits the Professional Way" dated 1951 and their bit on arms holes involves measuring under the arm against a measurement taken from the middle of the back of the collar.
When I get a chance, I'll scan parts of the book and put it up; it's cool!

 

[John in Covina]

This has been a pretty neat discussion.

Previous discussions in person with some of the gents at the Queen Mary Event brought some really great vintage suits to the forefront for comparisons to modern suits. Happyfilmloverguy, who posts only rarely these days, has a video of that QME, now some 3 or 4 years ago with demonstrations by Senator Jack, Matt Deckard and Forgotten Man. The details on the vintage suits were often surprising touches by a single tailor some might be consider signature details. The higher arm holes were definately evident in the vintage suits allowing for an active lifestyle while dressed up. Matt showed a modern bespoke suit that only looked good when his arms were at his sides, even sitting at a table with his elbows on the table made it look hideous. It was an early example of the learning curve he's been thru and how those that lead have put together a foundation to build on for the well dressed Fedora Lounger male.

Marc Chevalier's pursuit of Oviatt information as well as suits and clothes has given him some great insights as such his posts are gems to read.

FYI, we are going to put together the next Queen Mary Event (Long Beach CA) for May 2010. Keep an eye on the events section as we work out the details, if time and $ permits consider joining us, it's a great time.

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

Got it! Good arm holes, pics to follow

Yes, I finally got it and the arm holes are smaller and higher, and comfortable, and the bottom of the coat does not ride up when I lift my arms. I'll provide some particulars and pics soon.

Thanks for everyone's interest.

 

[Creeping Past]

...comfortable, and the bottom of the coat does not ride up when I lift my arms...

Aah, that's better... :eusa_clap

 

[Feraud]

Yes, I finally got it and the arm holes are smaller and higher, and comfortable, and the bottom of the coat does not ride up when I lift my arms. I'll provide some particulars and pics soon.

Thanks for everyone's interest.

That is great to read! I am looking forward to pics and any additional comments on fit as you wear the garment.