CNN Opinion: Stop hating on the millenials

[Touchofevil]

I know that I am hijacking this thread, buuuuuut I watched my mother fight with insurance companies nonstop for twenty plus years while fighting a terminal lung disease and five years with cancer. She learned a few tricks over the years but fortunately, she and dad had invested and saved to where they did not go broke. Mom worked for 25 years before her health forced her to retire. She paid her dues and yet the Evil that insurance companies are would have been happier if she would have gone away and died, but she wouldn't. The whole system is a horrible joke. I pay more because of the area in which I work, not where I live. I pay more and expect another increase next year knowing that I will get less in return and heaven help me if I get seriously sick.

 

[Flicka]

The one phrase that makes me want to punch any white middle class jackass who says it right in the mouth is the supercilious statement "You could be anything you wanted to be, if only you'd work harder." Because whenever you hear that phrase, you know it's coming from the kind of person who believes in climbing the ladder and then pulling it up behind him.

I was just thinking about this in relation to my post - I just wanted to clarify that's not what I meant, nor what my mother would say. We're coming very close to politics now, but I would prefer a society where decent living conditions is a right, no matter who you are. I believe in fair payment, free healthcare, free education, and that no one – no one – should be going without food, heating, and even a few "luxuries". I also believe we should all help to pay for that. You should be given according to your needs, and you should pay according to ability. That's the sort of society we struggled very hard to build from 1900-1990 (it was the most significant achievement of the 1930s-60s here, so it's our "golden era values") and now our politicians are tearing it down because they are not only privileged, but ignorant enough to think that being privileged makes you entitled.

But I do believe in working hard and it annoys me so when privileged people think they are exempt from the obligation of doing their best because they're somehow 'special'. They get everything and yet they're not willing to make even the smallest effort and yet seem to think they are somehow more deserving than people born without the same options, and that everyone who has not been as fortunate have themselves to blame somehow. Working hard and making the most of your gifts shouldn't be about creating a cushy situation for yourself; it should be done for the benefit of everyone, and shirking that duty, is immoral, IMO.

I recognise my own privileges compared to others, and I think a lot of them shouldn't be privileges but rights. So no, I don't want to pull up the ladder; I want us all to be on the same height so we have to look each other in the eye.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Then you haven't been paying attention; it's one of the most common criticisms of my generations. Boomers who came of age in the late 1960s love to lecture millennials about how they had the anti-war movement, change everything, etc. and accuse millennials of not caring about anything and doing nothing. In fact, it's practically a cliche . . .

No, I've been paying attention, just never heard that. The complaint most often heard about millennials is that they care an awful lot, hence their complaining about how things are not what they want/expect.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

I was just thinking about this in relation to my post - I just wanted to clarify that's not what I meant, nor what my mother would say. We're coming very close to politics now, but I would prefer a society where decent living conditions is a right, no matter who you are. I believe in fair payment, free healthcare, free education, and that no one – no one – should be going without food, heating, and even a few "luxuries". I also believe we should all help to pay for that. You should be given according to your needs, and you should pay according to ability. That's the sort of society we struggled very hard to build from 1900-1990 (it was the most significant achievement of the 1930s-60s here, so it's our "golden era values") and now our politicians are tearing it down because they are not only privileged, but ignorant enough to think that being privileged makes you entitled.

But I do believe in working hard and it annoys me so when privileged people think they are exempt from the obligation of doing their best because they're somehow 'special'. They get everything and yet they're not willing to make even the smallest effort and yet seem to think they are somehow more deserving than people born without the same options, and that everyone who has not been as fortunate have themselves to blame somehow. Working hard and making the most of your gifts shouldn't be about creating a cushy situation for yourself; it should be done for the benefit of everyone, and shirking that duty, is immoral, IMO.

I recognise my own privileges compared to others, and I think a lot of them shouldn't be privileges but rights. So no, I don't want to pull up the ladder; I want us all to be on the same height so we have to look each other in the eye.

Why would anyone work if there is a right to free: food, healthcare, heating, "luxuries", and education? Who decides you should be "given according to your needs, and you should pay according to ability."

 

[HudsonHawk]

I was just thinking about this in relation to my post - I just wanted to clarify that's not what I meant, nor what my mother would say. We're coming very close to politics now, but I would prefer a society where decent living conditions is a right, no matter who you are. I believe in fair payment, free healthcare, free education, and that no one – no one – should be going without food, heating, and even a few "luxuries". I also believe we should all help to pay for that. You should be given according to your needs, and you should pay according to ability. That's the sort of society we struggled very hard to build from 1900-1990 (it was the most significant achievement of the 1930s-60s here, so it's our "golden era values")

I don't consider Marxism to be a real "value". But the bigger question with your philosophy is what happens when you run out of other peoples' money?

 

[lolly_loisides]

I don't consider Marxism to be a real "value". But the bigger question with your philosophy is what happens when you run out of other peoples' money?

It isn't other people's money. It's our money. When Flicka talks about free education & health care she means it's paid for by taxes - those that earn the most should pay higher taxes. If they profit from society then they should pay their fair share.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I was just thinking about this in relation to my post - I just wanted to clarify that's not what I meant, nor what my mother would say. We're coming very close to politics now, but I would prefer a society where decent living conditions is a right, no matter who you are. I believe in fair payment, free healthcare, free education, and that no one – no one – should be going without food, heating, and even a few "luxuries". I also believe we should all help to pay for that. You should be given according to your needs, and you should pay according to ability. That's the sort of society we struggled very hard to build from 1900-1990 (it was the most significant achievement of the 1930s-60s here, so it's our "golden era values") and now our politicians are tearing it down because they are not only privileged, but ignorant enough to think that being privileged makes you entitled.

But I do believe in working hard and it annoys me so when privileged people think they are exempt from the obligation of doing their best because they're somehow 'special'. They get everything and yet they're not willing to make even the smallest effort and yet seem to think they are somehow more deserving than people born without the same options, and that everyone who has not been as fortunate have themselves to blame somehow. Working hard and making the most of your gifts shouldn't be about creating a cushy situation for yourself; it should be done for the benefit of everyone, and shirking that duty, is immoral, IMO.

I recognise my own privileges compared to others, and I think a lot of them shouldn't be privileges but rights. So no, I don't want to pull up the ladder; I want us all to be on the same height so we have to look each other in the eye.

Well said. I believe that eventually we'll all have to give account for ourselves -- not as business people, not as executives, not as stockholders, not as investors, not as Americans or Swedes or Britons or Germans or whatever, but as human beings. And the question we'll all be asked will not be how much money did we make or how many homes did we own or how extensive our portfolios were, but how we treated our fellow human beings.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And as far as advice to millenials goes, here's some: stop wasting your time and money on liberal arts degrees. Become a plumber or an electrician and you'll never, ever want for work.

 

[HudsonHawk]

It isn't other people's money. It's our money. When Flicka talks about free education & health care she means it's paid for by taxes - those that earn the most should pay higher taxes. If they profit from society then they should pay their fair share.

Paying your fair share of taxes is not "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Taxes are used to fund the framework of government and community infrastructure, not to support society totally. The fundemental premise of Flicka's philosophy is that society has developed to the point where there is no such thing as "labor" anymore, and people simply do things out of pleasure. Which is great as long as there's someone willing to clean toilets out of the goodness of his heart. How realistic do you think that is?

 

[lolly_loisides]

Well I don't think that Flicka would agree with you, but I'll let her answer that.

 

[Flicka]

Why would anyone work if there is a right to free: food, healthcare, heating, "luxuries", and education? Who decides you should be "given according to your needs, and you should pay according to ability."

Apparently up until now the answer has been "they're Swedish". Maybe it's something in our water? Because it clearly couldn't be because we were raised to think that it's right that we all contribute according to our own ability. No, that'd just be crazy!

I don't consider Marxism to be a real "value".

So the idea that you have a moral obligation to care for your neighbour is "Marxism"? The idea that you should not put yourself and your own needs first but help the weak and sick and downtrodden because they are your fellow human beings and deserve your care every bit as much as you yourself do is "Marxism"? Is saying that such an obligation is a moral absolute, whether or not we find it easy to live up to, "Marxism"?

I dunno. I suppose that depends on if you'd call a certain guy from Galilee who lived about two thousand years ago a Marxist or not, which you are perfectly entitled to, of course. To each their own.

Paying your fair share of taxes is not "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

It is if that's how you design the tax system and a corresponding system of benefits.

Taxes are used to fund the framework of government and community infrastructure, not to support society totally. The fundemental premise of Flicka's philosophy is that society has developed to the point where there is no such thing as "labor" anymore, and people simply do things out of pleasure. Which is great as long as there's someone willing to clean toilets out of the goodness of his heart. How realistic do you think that is?

Who says there is no such thing as labour? Who says people should have to do things "out of pleasure"? Who says there can't be wages and jobs just because there are also pensions and free healthcare? You are talking about this as if it's some kind of theoretical Utopia. Don't you know there are countries with free healthcare and paid sick leave? With unemployment benefits? With paid parental leave? With free education and social benefits that include heating, food and even internet access?

I suspect you really don't, which makes it pretty difficult to have a fruitful discussion about this with you, especially since I have not been overly impressed with the tone you've used towards others in this thread. So with all due respect, I'm going to sit this one out.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

To believe those things does not necessarily mean you are a Marxist or believe Marxist theory to be correct or useful. (And for sure there's no reason to defend yourself in anything other than intellectual terms if you do. The misuse of theory by totalitarian regimes does not make one a totalitarian. Plenty Capitalist totalitarians out there!)

But yes, those things quoted pretty much underpin Marxist theory.

So the idea that you have a moral obligation to care for your neighbour is "Marxism"? The idea that you should not put yourself and your own needs first but help the weak and sick and downtrodden because they are your fellow human beings and deserve your care every bit as much as you yourself do is "Marxism"? Is saying that such an obligation is a moral absolute, whether or not we find it easy to live up to, "Marxism"?

 

[HudsonHawk]

So the idea that you have a moral obligation to care for your neighbour is "Marxism"? The idea that you should not put yourself and your own needs first but help the weak and sick and downtrodden because they are your fellow human beings and deserve your care every bit as much as you yourself do is "Marxism"? Is saying that such an obligation is a moral absolute, whether or not we find it easy to live up to, "Marxism"?

In a word..."yes". That's the foundation of Marxism.

Who says there is no such thing as labour? Who says people should have to do things "out of pleasure"? Who says there can't be wages and jobs just because there are also pensions and free healthcare? You are talking about this as if it's some kind of theoretical Utopia.

Don't you know there are countries with free healthcare and paid sick leave? With unemployment benefits? With paid parental leave? With free education and social benefits that include heating, food and even internet access?

I suspect you really don't, which makes it pretty difficult to have a fruitful discussion about this with you, especially since I have not been overly impressed with the tone you've used towards others in this thread. So with all due respect, I'm going to sit this one out.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Forgive me.

 

[LizzieMaine]

To believe those things does not necessarily mean you are a Marxist or believe Marxist theory to be correct or useful. (And for sure there's no reason to defend yourself in anything other than intellectual terms if you do. The misuse of theory by totalitarian regimes does not make one a totalitarian. Plenty Capitalist totalitarians out there!)

But yes, those things quoted pretty much underpin Marxist theory.

They're also the underpinnings of Christianity. But if all you have is a hammer, everything you see is a nail.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Some would have it that the reason those things underpin pretty much every ideology that ever came into being, is that they are fundamental to the human condition (some would go so far as to say fundamental to the animal/sentient conditon - to be aware of the self is to be aware of others, and aware of your impact on others).

 

[Flicka]

To believe those things does not necessarily mean you are a Marxist or believe Marxist theory to be correct or useful.

But yes, those things quoted pretty much underpin Marxist theory.

But they are not only part of a Marxist belief system, which was my point. You can arrive at that same conclusion from other starting points than Marxism (and there are plenty of socialist -isms other than Marxism). Also, they are not the full extent of the Marxist belief system, of course. You can arrive at every bad aspect of Marxism from the opposite direction too.

In the end, it's just a word. I don't really care what people label me.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ringing in "Marxist!" in an internet discussion is merely an overused corollary of Godwin's Law. Godwinoschevsky's Law, perhaps.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Ringing in "Marxist!" in an internet discussion is merely an overused corollary of Godwin's Law. Godwinoschevsky's Law, perhaps.

Except when the discussion actually *is* about the higher levels of communism.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Except when the discussion actually *is* about the higher levels of communism.

You call it communism, I call it Christianity. The Apostle Matthew wrote about it eighteen centuries before Marx.

 

[Flicka]

You call it communism, I call it Christianity.

So does the Pope incidentally, and I'm Catholic.