CNN Opinion: Stop hating on the millenials

[vintageTink]

The other thing that boggles my mind is he number of these millennials who let their friends decide whether or not a particular job or industry meets some ethical criteria. I've had more than a handful of college grads turn down a starting salary of over $100,000 because their friends say they wouldn't respect someone who worked for an oil company. I suppose they all think the plastic for their iPhones and gas for their Prius just appears by magic.

I'd ask, "When can I start?". Retarded kids. I'd work for PETA for that kind of money! Lol

 

[dhermann1]

Always reassuring to see how much affection people have for us Baby Boomers . . . TOMMMMMM . But seriously, I think this whole "generation" thing is ridiculous. People are individuals, and generalizations are bunk.

 

[Flicka]

I think one of the problems with American society is that we pretend social class is defined by money, when in reality it's defined by factors which go much deeper. When I talk about working class/lower-middle-class I'm talking about an entire system of social and cultural values and suppositions about what you can expect from your life that are inculcated in you from childhood. A working class kid does not take a college education for granted, does not assume he or she will make a lot of money some day, and assumes that the purpose of work is to support one's self and one's family, not to achieve some sort of personal fulfillment. Middle-class people, by contrast, take college as an expectation from birth, assume that they will achieve "careers" as opposed to "jobs," and are terribly, terribly concerned about what others think of them and their place in society. There are many many other such differences, but those are the ones relevant to this discussion.

A middle class person who makes a lot of money is not upper class. A middle class person with money is simply a rich middle class person, with a middle class person's expectations, values, and worldview. Donald Trump is a rich man, but he is a rich *middle-class* man from the top of his overpriced toupee to the tips of his overpriced shoes. A middle-class kid from the suburbs who grows a grotesque beard, puts on a flannel shirt, and goes to live in a bedbug infested apartment in Brooklyn is not, and will never be working class. He's a middle-class person without any money.

An upper class person is an aristocrat -- we pretend we don't have an aristocracy in America, but we do. The actual American upper class is limited primarily to old families of inherited wealth going back to the 19th Century, for whom questions of social or financial achievement and prestige are completely irrelevant. They don't worry about those things, because they know that, as aristocrats, they don't have to.

It's the same here - I'm middle class. Always was, always will be. I was raised with an upper middle class mentality, on a working class income, but the first had a much greater impact in shaping my core outlook on life. My mother's family are all doctors and university professors and heads of government agencies and such (one of my uncles is even on the Nobel Prize Committee), with the occasional teacher and vicar thrown in. I grew up with a single mother who worked her behind off as a nurse and still couldn't make ends meet. I grew up without money, having to take care of my younger sister since my mother had to work 12 hours shifts, starting at 7 a.m., but I grew up middle class. No mistake about it. I didn't feel "entitled" to an education, but I felt that I had an obligation to pursue one. I knew my options and I knew how to work the system and I never once stopped to ask myself: "can I do this? Who am I to think I can manage that?" That's the sort of middle class confidence that I always took for granted, but that's really a privilege. At the same time, having grown up without resources is a sort of privilege too because it taught me some lessons that you can't learn except through experience.

Some of my cousins grew up very privileged, in the most expensive area in town, going to the most expensive private schools, and I think it says everything about my mother's old-fashioned middle class mindset that she secretly gloats over the fact that I and my sisters all have done better academically and career-wise than they have, despite going to poor public schools. She sees it as proof that her motto "hard work can make up for every other disadvantage and you have no excuse not to work hard" is true.

So, insofar that I have a motto, it's a quote by Judy Holliday (fantastic actress, IMO): "Of course I work hard. Why shouldn't I? Who am I to think I should get things the easy way?" Then, I should probably mention I'm also in therapy for my complete inability to accept that, occasionally, I can actually be allowed to do what feel good, feeling content is not actually final proof I'm morally degenerate. Yeah, it's crazy old life, isn't it?

Anyway––Lizzie, one thing I've been meaning to ask you is if you've read Susan Isaacs' novels, especially Shining Through and Lily White? If so, what do you think of them? She's really good at pinning down class markers, IMO, and class i a recurring theme in almost all her books. They're about America (very much about what makes America what it is), but they've given me a lot of insights into Swedish and British society too, because in the end class is class and snobbism is snobbism. Plus the rather sharp, perceptive, and gutsy wit of her characters remind me of you. She's terribly underrated IMO.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I'd ask, "When can I start?". Retarded kids. I'd work for PETA for that kind of money! Lol

Well, they're not unlike any other generation when they're young. They're naive and idealistic. And I can appreciate that, I used to be that way. Not that I'm particularly jaded now, just have a better understanding of how the world works. As the old saying goes...any man who is not liberal at 20 has no heart...

 

[vintageTink]

Well, they're not unlike any other generation when they're young. They're naive and idealistic. And I can appreciate that, I used to be that way. Not that I'm particularly jaded now, just have a better understanding of how the world works. As the old saying goes...any man who is not liberal at 20 has no heart...

I wasn't ever like that, but then I grew up poor, abused, and always in state assistance.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I wasn't ever like that, but then I grew up poor, abused, and always in state assistance.

I'm sorry to hear that. I grew up poor, but was not abused. I can only imagine being both.

 

[sheeplady]

There was an interesting special on Frontline last night that followed two working class families over the years from 1991 until now in Milwaukee. Both families had the father's earning $14 or more in unionized jobs in 1991. As the industries left, they lost their jobs. Eventually their neighborhoods declined. One family lost their home. They simply could no longer find work that wasn't minimum wage. I highly recommend it.

Most of their kids were working for minimum wage (which $7.25 in my state at the time of filming) while 20 years prior the parents had been working jobs for at least double that plus benefits- with the same levels of education. Let that sink in for a second: their kids were making half what the parents made 20 years ago. Not because their kids are lazy, but because there are very few good paying working class jobs with benefits anymore.

I think the most difficult thing that the millennial generation has had to face (and I do think this is different than in other generations) is that the working class is no longer able to make a stable living and have luxuries. Many working class people pre-1980s owned homes. Many of them had benefits. Many of them had job security. Some working class families could afford one parent to stay at home. Many were able to put food on the table. Now the working class has become the working poor. We've got entire companies who make a business of having "benefits" but short changing people by an hour of work every week so they fail to qualify for them, and instead these people have the rely on the state for healthcare. That's for those jobs that actually offer it.

If you don't think that's a problem and giving these kids a short shrift, I don't know what is. You can repeat all the advantages these kids had growing up, but the plain fact is that for working class individuals, the good paying jobs aren't there.

ETA: And yeah, that's entirely the fault of a generation of individuals older who couldn't care less where the blue collared jobs went, so long as they could consume, consume, consume.

 

[LizzieMaine]

ETA: And yeah, that's entirely the fault of a generation of individuals older who couldn't care less where the blue collared jobs went, so long as they could consume, consume, consume.

Precisely. It's not a generational problem. It's the culture itself that's diseased.

 

[HudsonHawk]

If you don't think that's a problem and giving these kids a short shrift, I don't know what is. You can repeat all the advantages these kids had growing up, but the plain fact is that for working class individuals, the good paying jobs aren't there.

I guess this is where you and I part philosophies. You see those good paying jobs, or that owning a home, or living better than your parents as a right that everyone is entitled to, and if you don't have those things, you've somehow been cheated. I don't see it that way. It's sad. It's frustrating. I wish it wasn't that way. But I just don't see them as victims just because it's now difficult fo them to live the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed.

 

[sheeplady]

I guess this is where you and I part philosophies. You see those good paying jobs, or that owning a home, or living better than your parents as a right that everyone is entitled to, and if you don't have those things, you've somehow been cheated. I don't see it that way. It's sad. It's frustrating. I wish it wasn't that way. But I just don't see them as victims just because it's now difficult fo them to live the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed.

Sorry, but I don't see healthcare as a "privilege." I don't see being able to put food on your table as a "privilege." I don't see working 40 or 60 hours a week and having to rely on government assistance as a "privilege."

You have very little knowledge of what it is like to survive on a minimum wage with no benefits job in 2013.

Notice I never said living better than their parents, I said *living as well.* Or do you think that today's children don't even deserve to have enough money to meet basic needs, like food and shelter? Plenty of working class people are barely doing that on 2 or 3 jobs, whereas their parents had more on one job.

Look at the example I gave. Do you think it's fair that a working class person could make $15 plus benefits in 1991, but now that person and their children can only make $7.25 an hour?

ETA: I do think everyone who works hard and full time is entitled to a good paycheck that allows them to survive well enough to have a roof over their head, a full belly at night, and not to go bankrupt if they have a medical crisis. I don't think it's right of society to allow people to work for less than they can survive on, and just say those people are whiners. I think anyone who says that a hard working person should go hungry because they can "work harder" or "find another job" is heartless.

The fact that our society cares so little about the welfare of the working class that we've subjugated a group of people who once made up the majority of the U.S. and lived comfortable (if not sparse) lives to a group of people who are now a minority and many of whom rely on public assistance, pieced together jobs, and charity on a regular basis and still find it difficult to survive (yet alone be comfortable) is a sign of how far we've fallen as a society.

Sorry, but I do disagree with you fundamentally. I don't think we should be kicking people to the curb and that some people "deserve" to have poor paying jobs. Everyone who is willing to work hard deserves a job they can live off of comfortably- not lavishly- but food, shelter, and medical care is provided for. I don't believe that a certain segment of society should struggle just because I don't struggle by matter of luck.

 

[vintageTink]

Even if you find a job that pays $14 an hour in my area, you still don't have enough. Property costs are enormous, food is skyrocketing, we have some of the highest gas prices in the country. We have a roommate because it's so expensive to live here (and we rent an 1000sg ft manufactured home for three adults and two kids) and I don't have the stamina to hold down two full-time jobs to barely make ends meet. Boarder pays half rent but pretty much nothing else. Healthcare at my job would cost us 1/4 of my paycheck.
We've been trying to move for years, but moving out of state, south, is mega expensive and we can't afford it.
We don't have credit cards, we buy everything used or we barter, we use coupons and sales, we don't go anywhere. And we still get behind.

I think those who sent manufacturing jobs overseas ought to be strung up. Anyway...

 

[sheeplady]

Even if you find a job that pays $14 an hour in my area, you still don't have enough. Property costs are enormous, food is skyrocketing, we have some of the highest gas prices in the country. We have a roommate because it's so expensive to live here (and we rent an 1000sg ft manufactured home for three adults and two kids) and I don't have the stamina to hold down two full-time jobs to barely make ends meet. Boarder pays half rent but pretty much nothing else. Healthcare at my job would cost us 1/4 of my paycheck.
We've been trying to move for years, but moving out of state, south, is mega expensive and we can't afford it.
We don't have credit cards, we buy everything used or we barter, we use coupons and sales, we don't go anywhere. And we still get behind.

I think those who sent manufacturing jobs overseas ought to be strung up. Anyway...

Exactly... this is what I'm getting at. $14 an hour in 1991 was enough... you'd expect that to be double now, or at least over $20. It was over 20 years ago. It's sickening to know we've not even maintained, but backslid. You can argue if it's better to be a kid who's born into a working class family now and is always going to face poverty, or if it's better to have once been able to afford things and then slid into poverty. Either way, the person is poor. For no reason other than a lack of opportunity.

Tacoma is near Seattle, right? I couldn't live in Seattle for love nor money- it's hideously expensive (my in-laws live there). Well, ok, I couldn't live there because of the inlaws, but I generally don't like the mainstream culture (kind of snobby, what I have experienced on various trips) or the costs. If you want to move to upstate NY, it's cheap here to live. Anyplace north or west of Albany, with some areas excepted. $15 an hour can buy a small house in the better part of the city, $20 an hour (single income) could buy you a small house in the suburbs.

ETA: But the problem, again, is lack of $20 an hour jobs. Our largest employer is the university (3,000 employees) and the second is the hospitals. This is in a city which once had GE, Carrier, Syracuse China, several auto part makers, etc. GE once had 10,000 employees here, Carrier had *more*.

 

[rjb1]

It may not be politically correct to generalize, or "stereotype", but the Millennials do tend to be a certain way, and that way is often not very admirable or easy to deal with. So much so that I've had to change my ways of interacting with them in the past few years, in the course of teaching engineering.
One way I have found is to be more direct and more rigorous with them, since they do tend to have a *strong* sense of entitlement. For example, we have to issue an "Opening of Course" memo telling what the course is about and what we expect from the students.
In addition to the traditional items such as showing initiative, practicing teamwork, etc., I have added a last point to the list: "No Whining".
Just as there is no crying in baseball, there is no whining in engineering. I tell them point-blank that I don't want to hear it.
Either fix it, work around it, or ignore it, but don't whine about it. (whatever "it" is...)
When it comes to grading, I get them out of that classic whine: "You took five points off my problem and only three off my friend's problem and we have the same answer." by saying, " I clearly made a mistake. Have your friend bring me his/her paper and I'll take five points off theirs, too." If they are really whiny about it, I say: "If your answer is *just like* your pal's then we all may need to take a trip to the Honor Council. You're not supposed to have *exactly* the same answer." Since that can get them kicked out of school, they don't use that ploy again.
The general tendency to whine goes away quite soon and I don't have to hear it anymore.
They (Millennials) are very smart, just too coddled, in a lot of cases. (See "Helicopter Parents"...) However, it doesn't take them long to figure what works and what doesn't. By the time they are seniors most have mended their ways, are remarkably mature, and do get good jobs with no problem. (A lot to HudsonHawk's oil industry).
As for social class, Lizzie and others have it right on target. As a Top-20 private university we get a lot of prep-school people. They are the WORST, at least at the beginning.
In fact, several of us feel that there should be some special rejection criteria for those applying to engineering school:
1) Anyone named Biff, Chad, Trey, or Muffy - REJECT
2) Anyone with a Roman Numeral after their name: John Smith, IV - REJECT
3)Anyone with an interchangeable name that reads the same either way: Taylor Madison or Madison Taylor - REJECT
However, I have to say again that by the time they are seniors, most of even the prep-school kids have gotten things figured out and will be successful. (They just take more "work" to get them straightened out.)
That, I suppose, is a more positive spin on the Millennial situation, at least from my little corner of the world. In some respects they are a mess, but they are "fixable".
(Concerning Paul Fussell, in addition to Lizzie's recommendation, I suggest reading "Wartime". It has some good insights on class from a military (officers vs. enlisted) perspective. The funny thing about it is that even though it was written in 1989, you can tell that Fussell is still "PO'ed" about things that happened back in WWII.)

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

Look at the example I gave. Do you think it's fair that a working class person could make $15 plus benefits in 1991, but now that person and their children can only make $7.25 an hour?
...

The fact that our society cares so little about the welfare of the working class that we've subjugated a group of people who once made up the majority of the U.S. and lived comfortable (if not sparse) lives to a group of people who are now a minority and many of whom rely on public assistance, pieced together jobs, and charity on a regular basis and still find it difficult to survive (yet alone be comfortable) is a sign of how far we've fallen as a society.

Sorry, but I do disagree with you fundamentally. I don't think we should be kicking people to the curb and that some people "deserve" to have poor paying jobs. Everyone who is willing to work hard deserves a job they can live off of comfortably- not lavishly- but food, shelter, and medical care is provided for. I don't believe that a certain segment of society should struggle just because I don't struggle by matter of luck.

In response to the first paragraph, isn't it a little naive for that family to assume that a $15 an hour job would always be there? If it is a low skill job, the wages will likely be low because anyone can fill it.

For paragraphs 2 and 3, could you expand on this a bit more. With now healthcare, rent assistance, free legal advice, food stamps, bridge cards, assistance with utilities, free phones, I don't understand how you can say our society cares so little about the welfare of the working class?

There will always be a upper, middle, and lower class. From my experience the lower class today have video game systems, flat screen televisions, central heat/ a.c., smart phones, tablets, east credit, relatively nice clothing, multiple automobiles? If that is lower class then is that really that terrible. What more does the lower class want?

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

It may not be politically correct to generalize, or "stereotype", but the Millennials do tend to be a certain way, and that way is often not very admirable or easy to deal with. So much so that I've had to change my ways of interacting with them in the past few years, in the course of teaching engineering.
One way I have found is to be more direct and more rigorous with them, since they do tend to have a *strong* sense of entitlement. For example, we have to issue an "Opening of Course" memo telling what the course is about and what we expect from the students.
In addition to the traditional items such as showing initiative, practicing teamwork, etc., I have added a last point to the list: "No Whining".
Just as there is no crying in baseball, there is no whining in engineering. I tell them point-blank that I don't want to hear it.
Either fix it, work around it, or ignore it, but don't whine about it. (whatever "it" is...)
When it comes to grading, I get them out of that classic whine: "You took five points off my problem and only three off my friend's problem and we have the same answer." by saying, " I clearly made a mistake. Have your friend bring me his/her paper and I'll take five points off theirs, too." If they are really whiny about it, I say: "If your answer is *just like* your pal's then we all may need to take a trip to the Honor Council. You're not supposed to have *exactly* the same answer." Since that can get them kicked out of school, they don't use that ploy again.
The general tendency to whine goes away quite soon and I don't have to hear it anymore.
They (Millennials) are very smart, just too coddled, in a lot of cases. (See "Helicopter Parents"...) However, it doesn't take them long to figure what works and what doesn't. By the time they are seniors most have mended their ways, are remarkably mature, and do get good jobs with no problem. (A lot to HudsonHawk's oil industry).
As for social class, Lizzie and others have it right on target. As a Top-20 private university we get a lot of prep-school people. They are the WORST, at least at the beginning.
In fact, several of us feel that there should be some special rejection criteria for those applying to engineering school:
1) Anyone named Biff, Chad, Trey, or Muffy - REJECT
2) Anyone with a Roman Numeral after their name: John Smith, IV - REJECT
3)Anyone with an interchangeable name that reads the same either way: Taylor Madison or Madison Taylor - REJECT
However, I have to say again that by the time they are seniors, most of even the prep-school kids have gotten things figured out and will be successful. (They just take more "work" to get them straightened out.)
That, I suppose, is a more positive spin on the Millennial situation, at least from my little corner of the world. In some respects they are a mess, but they are "fixable".
(Concerning Paul Fussell, in addition to Lizzie's recommendation, I suggest reading "Wartime". It has some good insights on class from a military (officers vs. enlisted) perspective. The funny thing about it is that even though it was written in 1989, you can tell that Fussell is still "PO'ed" about things that happened back in WWII.)

I think children always needed stern, no B.S. types in life or at least in education. If we had more LizzieMaines the world would be a better place.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Sorry, but I don't see healthcare as a "privilege." I don't see being able to put food on your table as a "privilege." I don't see working 40 or 60 hours a week and having to rely on government assistance as a "privilege."

You have very little knowledge of what it is like to survive on a minimum wage with no benefits job in 2013.

I have intimate knowledge of what it's like to be poor though. I have knowledge of what it's like to not get to eat every day. To not have electricity or running water. To have to live on welfare. To have to work four minimum wage jobs to be able to stay alive.

Or do you think that today's children don't even deserve to have enough money to meet basic needs, like food and shelter? Plenty of working class people are barely doing that on 2 or 3 jobs, whereas their parents had more on one job.

This isn't about what one "deserves". It's about managing expectations.

Look at the example I gave. Do you think it's fair that a working class person could make $15 plus benefits in 1991, but now that person and their children can only make $7.25 an hour?

Life is not fair. That's my point.

ETA: I do think everyone who works hard and full time is entitled to a good paycheck that allows them to survive well enough to have a roof over their head, a full belly at night, and not to go bankrupt if they have a medical crisis.

Well I don't. I understand you feel differently.

I don't think it's right of society to allow people to work for less than they can survive on, and just say those people are whiners.

I think anyone who says that a hard working person should go hungry because they can "work harder" or "find another job" is heartless.

No one has said that. That's a complete strawman on your part.

Sorry, but I do disagree with you fundamentally. I don't think we should be kicking people to the curb and that some people "deserve" to have poor paying jobs.

Another strawman. I never said anything remotely resembling that. I've suggested that too many millennials have unrealistic expectations about how the world works because they've never had to face adversity. That's a far cry from "we should kick people to the curb".

Everyone who is willing to work hard deserves a job they can live off of comfortably- not lavishly- but food, shelter, and medical care is provided for. I don't believe that a certain segment of society should struggle just because I don't struggle by matter of luck.

I don't feel I have a job by luck. I've worked my butt off.

 

[sheeplady]

In response to the first paragraph, isn't it a little naive for that family to assume that a $15 an hour job would always be there? If it is a low skill job, the wages will likely be low because anyone can fill it.

For paragraphs 2 and 3, could you expand on this a bit more. With now healthcare, rent assistance, free legal advice, food stamps, bridge cards, assistance with utilities, free phones, I don't understand how you can say our society cares so little about the welfare of the working class?

There will always be a upper, middle, and lower class. From my experience the lower class today have video game systems, flat screen televisions, central heat/ a.c., smart phones, tablets, east credit, relatively nice clothing, multiple automobiles? If that is lower class then is that really that terrible. What more does the lower class want?

First, there is nothing more soul crushing that to work full time or more than full time and not be able to make ends meet. If you've never had to go to a food pantry, request medicaid or treatment under a number of bills while working your butt off, then consider yourself lucky. Unless you are independently wealthy, you're only one major illness away from it. And it sucks if you have to grovel to feed your family or yourself because of fate. Anybody who thinks that going to a food pantry is a walk in the park should have to do it sometime.

Secondly, you are confusing working class with lower class. The way I would line our society is up is: poor, working class (sometimes called lower middle class), middle class, upper middle class, and upper class. Those that live on total assistance are poor. Those who work full time are working class. We've started to blur the line between the two. That's SAD. Given the fact that the working class was once the bread and butter of this nation that we've allowed these individuals to backslide into poverty is SAD.

Thirdly, the fact that you believe that everyone who is working class has flat screen tvs and central air is insulting. I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. There's plenty of people from working class backgrounds here, and there's plenty of people making a working class income here. I can guarantee you very few had/have luxuries.

Finally, do you assume that your job will always be there? How long can you live without an income or benefits?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think those who sent manufacturing jobs overseas ought to be strung up. Anyway...

All those kids occupying Wall Street, and not one of them thought to bring a rope. Very sad.

 

[HudsonHawk]

There's plenty of people from working class backgrounds here, and there's plenty of people making a working class income here. I can guarantee you very few had/have luxuries.

I'm having a hard time reconciling having a computer and internet connection with claiming to not have luxuries.

 

[sheeplady]

Another strawman. I never said anything remotely resembling that. I've suggested that too many millennials have unrealistic expectations about how the world works because they've never had to face adversity. That's a far cry from "we should kick people to the curb".

What I said was:

Many working class people pre-1980s owned homes. Many of them had benefits. Many of them had job security. Some working class families could afford one parent to stay at home. Many were able to put food on the table. Now the working class has become the working poor. We've got entire companies who make a business of having "benefits" but short changing people by an hour of work every week so they fail to qualify for them, and instead these people have the rely on the state for healthcare. That's for those jobs that actually offer it.

I mentioned putting food on the table specifically and not having to rely on government assistance for healthcare as two things that I do believe people should have who work hard. To which you replied:

I guess this is where you and I part philosophies. You see those good paying jobs, or that owning a home, or living better than your parents as a right that everyone is entitled to, and if you don't have those things, you've somehow been cheated. I don't see it that way. It's sad. It's frustrating. I wish it wasn't that way. But I just don't see them as victims just because it's now difficult fo them to live the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed.

Which is totally ignoring the points I made. I brought up people couldn't put food on the table and you replied that I believed that everyone was entitled to something better than their parents, and then I simply replied that, yeah, I think people deserve better than their parents if it means they can eat. Stop accusing me of strawman arguments after you disagree with my arguments. If you disagree with my points, stand by your disagreement. Don't backslide and accuse me of pulling things out of thin air when you replied directly to my previous comment.

I don't feel I have a job by luck. I've worked my butt off.

I do feel I have my background by luck. I know a lot of hard working people (including a lot of people on this board) who didn't have the luck I had. I really suggest you tell one of them to their face that they just didn't work as hard as you.