Clothing, Choice, and Coercion

[Marc Chevalier]

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In a now-closed thread, Tomasso and Jake Fink delved into a very interesting subject. Tomasso posted the photo above. It got a few of us to thinking about clothing, choice and coercion. When it comes to what we wear, when is a "choice" so influenced by fear that it isn't much of a choice at all?

The Afghan burka, in and of itself, is inoffensive. If a woman wants to wear it because she feels good about the garment and what it symbolizes (be it modesty or devotion to God), then by all means, let her wear the burka and be left in peace. If, however, a woman does not wish to wear the burka -- and knows that by not wearing it, she could be shamed, beaten, imprisoned, or worse -- then her "choice" to ultimately wear it is an empty one.

What do you think? Have you ever felt that your "choice" of what to wear was, in essence, no choice at all? In OUR society, does the scale ever tip so far that coercion takes over?

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[LolitaHaze]

The only time I ever felt like I didn't have a choice was when I worked in fast food and had to wear a uniform. I don't so much mind the unity and polished look the uniform gives, I just hated their choice of how the shirts looked -- colors, patterns. Boo!

Other than that I was never really told what to wear, only what not to wear. When I was in my goth days (HS), my mother didn't like it when I wore black lipstick around her in public (everything else was ok). In turn it helped me modify the style wear I wore black liner around red lips. I really like this look better than solid black.

Back to the Burka... Honestly, I like the look of it. I enjoy different cultures and though I may not nessisarily agree with why some women <s>choose</s> have to wear them, I still like the mystery that revolves around it and the conviction to their beliefs or society. Granted, I think the punishment for not wearing is a bit extreme, but that is their world not mine. The only thing I wonder is how hot does it get under those things.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

.

In a now-closed thread, Tomasso and Jake Fink delved into a very interesting subject. Tomasso posted the photo above. It got a few of us to thinking about clothing, choice and coercion. When it comes to what we wear, when is a "choice" so influenced by fear that it isn't much of a choice at all?

The Afghan burka, in and of itself, is inoffensive. If a woman wants to wear it because she feels good about the garment and what it symbolizes (be it modesty or devotion to God), then by all means, let her wear the burka and be left in peace. If, however, a woman does not wish to wear the burka -- and knows that by not wearing it, she could be shamed, beaten, imprisoned, or worse -- then her "choice" to ultimately wear it is an empty one.

What do you think? Have you ever felt that your "choice" of what to wear was, in essence, no choice at all? In OUR society, does the scale ever tip so far that coercion takes over?

.

I think in our society (I hate to use the word "Society" but that's a thread for a different forum), coercion exists on a more benign level that becomes even more harmless as a person (and a person's peers) grow older. In junior high one is just becoming aware of clothing as something more than just stuff to wear. In high school there are insults ("freak" etc.) thrown around and beatings distributed occasionally. (Worse these days? Probably, though I don't know.) Nowadays, as adults, the worst is a comment or a weird look.

Pardon all my parentheticals.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A long time ago I belonged to a religion which had very strict rules about what could be worn and by whom -- if your skirt was less than an inch below your knee, you got a talking-to from Those In Authority, and you didn't have any say in the matter at all. If you wore your hair too short -- or too long, for that matter -- you'd also get a talking to. If you looked in any way "worldly" you'd get a talking to.

Thing was, the standards themselves didn't bother me at all -- I was never a short-skirt wearer, I've always been modest in the clothes I wear because that's just the way I am. But I resented terribly that a group of men felt they had the absolute authority to tell me what I had to wear and how I had to wear it. Even though I wouldn't have really wanted to wear the sort of things they didn't want me to wear, the fact that those men felt entitled by divine right to that authority over me really really made me angry. And finally, I walked away and never went back.

So I don't belong to that group anymore, and nobody tells me what I have to wear or not wear but me. And I never wear skirts less than an inch below my knee, but I do it because *I* want to, and not because somebody comes around with a ruler to measure me and make sure that I comply with their rules.

 

[colleency]

I saw a television show on, I believe, PBS. A western female reporter went to the middle east and spent a lot of time with the women. She tried wearing a burka and was reduced to tears in under an hour at how awful it was. She said it was hot, she couldn't see, and it was extremely claustrophobic. When she interviewed some men, they said that their sisters and wives wanted to wear the burka. Those same sisters and wives said they didn't want to wear it. I'm sure there must be some women that want to wear it, but I truly believe that many, many of the women don't want to wear it.

I've never really felt too constricted by clothing rules in the U.S. I've had dress codes and sometimes uniforms at school and at work, and I can't recall ever thinking that any of them were out of line. I guess the exception may be no shorts in high school in Las Vegas, because you could wear culottes below the knees or skirts of almost any shortness, but you couldn't wear shorts above the knees.

 

[Lady Day]

Choice, or the right to choose is only prevalent if there are a variety of options to choose from. In societies where a garment is considered "holy" and others consider it oppression, the holy argument often does not have the option, or the will to see why it is considered oppressive to the latter.

Im not saying that either side is correct, but to chose, from both, if not more options avaliable justifies and strengthens an argument.

For women it was corsets, then dresses, than gloves, then stockings etc etc etc. Each had an undertone of sexism, oppression and religious aspects. Now this is super light compaired to the religious-ness of the burka, but the arguments remain, if you are never given a choice, is what you have avaliable celebrated? Probably. Is it correct? Maybe not.

But with centuries of culture behind it, does change want to happen with choice?

LD

 

[mysterygal]

the only time I felt like I had to wear something was when I was a little girl and mom made me put on a dress
In this country, I don't see any 'fear' factor that would go into anybody's head about dress attire. I see just about every kind of fashion statement there is and really could care less. Granted, most of these fashion statements I see on people make them look absolutely horrible..but it is their choice of going out of their house and into the public market place looking like that.

 

[Caledonia]

If I can borrow a partial quote LadyDay - "if you are never given a choice". Interesting concept in that if you never have a choice does the debate about choice or coercion exist. You aren't necessarily being coerced unless you become aware of the lack of choice. Whatever the implications of the dictates of what you are and aren't supposed to wear, and I'm avoiding the term "fashion" but it's applicable, unless you know you have no choice you can't rail against it whether you would choose to or not. In terms of the ever fickle and changing fashion industry, does the consumer get what they ask for or buy what they are presented with. This is on topic but not necessarily centre topic focussed in case anybody's drifting off! Sorry. The point I'm trying miserably to make is that one could define choice and coercion before getting down to the nitty gritty. I knew I had a choice when mum made me choose "sensible shoes" over the daring 1.5 inch wedges I wanted when I was 13. I'm not sure she even bothered with coercion there, just ramrodded straight through to the checkout!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

You aren't necessarily being coerced unless you become aware of the lack of choice.

"Ignorance is bliss," perhaps?

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[Caledonia]

Perhaps, but that's debatable too. Define the state of bliss, and then discuss whether someone in ignorance of choice but in a state of suffering, that from the outside would be defined as suffering by those not suffering, is in effect in a state of bliss. If this is straying too far please someone fire up fftopic:, but I submit that philosophical debate is relevant somewhere in any topic to hone the mind. If only I had a crazy professor picture to slot in here.

 

[Feraud]

I think in our society coercion exists as it does in a more outwardly repressed society.

Coercion in terms of beauty as represented in clothes in the US of A towards women exists on an insidous level and is supported and encouraged by those family members who should be looking out for you.

Ideas such as -
Fitting in
Looking young
What is fashionable
Out of style
Being of marriage material

are as coercive on a subtle and more dangerous level than being physically forced to wear a particular piece of garment. What idea is more dangerous and confusing to a young woman. Knowing she will be stoned to death for showing her full face and hair in public, or a young girl of 12 or 13 who thinks she is too fat and goes to dangerous lengths to lose weight and fit into what everyone else is wearing?

My wife and I have discussed the different ways in which men and women dress up to look attractive. I always make her laugh when I compare the woman's need to have things hanging or bulging out to look "sexy" versus a well dressed sexy man. I never need to hike up my too tight pants so my underwear does not show. Nor am I afraid to bend over because something might "slip out" on top!

A picture you can see anyday of the week in New York City of a dating couple will look like this.

Him- 3XL team jersey down to his thighs, baseball cap, baggy pants, fake name brand sunglasses, unshaven.

Her- short shirt that exposes belly and top area, low cut pants usually with a slogan printed on the butt, flip-flops(day) or heels(evening), hair done up, makeup, tattoo along pelvic region.

The men dress like slobs while the gals desperately flaunt whatever they think they have to hook the bums. Some women even think this is "empowerment".

I do sense a lot of unseen coercion that exists in our society. For the most part we are unknowing participants in it.

 

[mysterygal]

I would only consider myself a participant if I was dressing along with the crowd myself. Not to get argumental, but, I am seeing a shift in the need to be overly thin trend. It is starting to become rare seeing a teenage girl who needs to gain weight! on one side, this is great, but, I also see girls, and boys who are definetely overweight, which insues health problems down the road for them.
I don't know the long term consequences of guys dressing the way they do these days, but it really saddens me to see some 14 yr old walking down the street like a hooker wanting attention from the opposite sex. It is way too young for the type of attention that attire is screaming out.

 

[Twitch]

Geez at my age the times I went through in my working life demanded a suit. End of story.[huh]

 

[otterhound]

I remember an incident when I was a kid in the '60s. We were leaving a Red Sox game at Fenway. A couple of guys who were leaving grabbed another guy who was leaving and beat him up.

The attackers and victim were alike in most ways -- they were all baseball fans of around the same age. The only difference was that the victim was the only guy around who was dressed in hippie clothes and the attackers weren't.

So this was a case of violence arising from what someone chose to wear, and right here in the USA. Of course this was 40 years ago.

Might this still happen in the USA today? Don't know.

 

[Lauren]

I think now it's more shocking to set a standard of modesty with style than it is to be risque in dress. For a church camp a few years ago we were to only wear modest two pieces or one piece swimsuits. You would be surprised how difficult it was to go into a store and buy something that would pass that criteria- something flattering yet conservative. I think that it's hard to make a choice based on faith and moral standing in our society which is so against constraints. I know myself and several friends are now thankful that long t shirts are in vogue again. It was horrible going to church retreats and having to keep pulling down on shirts so that our midrifts wouldn't be exposed.

 

[Lauren]

Excellent photo, btw, marc.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Glad you like it, but I can't take credit for it. Tomasso posted it first in another thread. Don't know where he found it, though.

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[Lady Day]

I thiink the concenus is this:

If the women 'choose' to wear the burka, is it out of respect or fear? Choice or faith?

What about fear and faith? or Respect and choice?

I think all in all it does not matter why that wear them, it iis that they do and can not choose not to. Be it social stiguma, family, faith, or the law, they have no choice but to wear it. So it isnt a choice then, is it? Not like we have.

Our choice is fueled by manipulation. Old Navy my go in with it sister store the Gap and say ''Neutrals are in fashion this season". Then both stores are flooded with 'natural cotton' middrifs. Then Macy's my say "hold shitnizel, the Gap and Old Navy beat us to the 'trend' and now they have the (---) demographic. Hey Saks, lets talk . . ." and so on and so forth.

Choice in this counnnntra-ie is decided by what 'fashion' says. If they want us wearing fuzzy knee high boots with tight thin hooded sweatshirts that cut off right under our boobs, then so be it! Thats fashion!

Right?

LD

 

[Shimmy Sally]

Some women even think this is "empowerment".

That's the idea being sold at the moment. I wonder how many people just buy whatever is on the store window mannequin, thinking that is their only option?

 

[Benny Holiday]

I wonder how many people just buy whatever is on the store window mannequin, thinking that is their only option?

Most people I know are like sheep who just go along with what they're told they should wear (and listen to, and what sports are acceptable to watch, and what the latest 'cool' gadgets are). They don't stop to think how silly they may look (like those pedal-pusher length pants for men!!!). They let mass consumerism dictate what they wear, and fear stepping outside what they are told is acceptable by the media of the day.

You definitely need courage and confidence in yourself to be an individual in Sydney. More people than not admire those who style themselves differently to the drone masses, but there are many who try to make you feel as uncomfortabel as possible for not following the flow.