Cleaning Nylon Flight Wear

[Edward]

In my experience nomex has never been soaked through with grime, it's just been surface grime which washes out relatively easily. Oil stains don't wash out but after washing they end up being more like a paint stain, i.e. a 'dry' stain. But obviously nylon is a different animal, and it's worth pointing out that nylon was never used by the USN. I think this simply comes down to the USAF not washing 'working outerwear' very often and crud building up on them. I'd be interested in hearing from Atticus who has a huge collection of vintage nylon; he's never mentioned them being dirty, although it's quite possible I think that really dirty jackets got disposed of while the 'clean' ones were kept by their wearers and eventually changed hands. What was the USAF's policy regarding jackets? When you were out the door did you get to keep your jacket? Did airmen get to keep their jackets (probably not), or did only more senior officers and NCO's keep their jackets thanks to their relative clout/immunity from supply sergeants? I think it's possible the jackets we see on the used market are mostly the cleanest examples only and mostly from senior personnel who weren't doing daily 'oil changes' as it were. I think Peacoat's observations are very useful since he was flying helicopters in a combat area - was the army tidier than the air force??

Would be interesting to know. I knew someone who quit the RAF some years ago (in the 2000s), and by that point in time you were supposed to hand back all of your issued uniform and gear, though it was never rally chased and guys would often keep it tucked away for three or four years after, before it found its way to eBay.

 

[Big J]

@DD,

Well, every nomex jacket looked clean until it got rained on, and when it dried there were stains where the dirt had been moved around, hence three washes to be sure.

Peacoats experience is relevant to a point; maybe the Army was cleaner than the Airforce. But without knowing when he served, it's impossible to gauge the age of the aircraft he was flying. At some points in the war (I'm thinking Lam Son 719) helicopters had very short service lives.

And we mustn't forget that rotary and fixed wing machines are in some respects apples and oranges. Helicopters of the era were 'relatively' simple machines compared to the F-4 (sorry, it's my 'go to' for the era) which was the most technologically advanced aircraft of the era.

Helicopters didn't have the same amount (by hundreds of yards) of hydraulics running through them, and weren't subject to the airframe expansion/contraction cycles that occur with speeds above the mach.

Also, to what degree was serious maintenance done away from the combat area by sending helicopters periodically to a rear area with more staff and facilities? I don't know.

F-4s in Thailand were lavished with man hours (there is a book that specifies the number, I don't remember which), but it was over 24 for each mission because the F-4 was such a complex machine. And this was there bare minimum to keep the aircraft flying for the next mission. Accounts of aircraft going on missions with failed radars, etc, abound so it doesn't seem that fixing minor leaks in the hydraulics etc were an effective use of man hours. It's also possible that some leaks were impossible to diagnose on the ground since the aircraft had cooled, and contraction would have stopped the leak.

Vietnam jets lived outside in revetments and were subject to the elements for the duration. Undoubtedly another factor in how clean they were.

In Europe and parts of the US aircraft live in HAS and are protected from the elements.

The more I think about it, the more I'm coming round to the theory that perceptions of cleanliness/dirtiness are a generational thing that reflects developments in aircraft technology, paint technology, and aircraft parking.

These days, I guess it doesn't really matter. Stealth aircraft don't like the rain on their paint or something. Modern aircraft are like they came out of the Apple Store.

 

[Peacoat]

Now that I have thought about this for awhile, I think the jackets I am familiar that shrank were probably put in the washing machine and perhaps the dryer as well. A gentle cold water hand wash, such as described in the previous posts, shouldn't cause much if any shrinkage. For a definitive answer, though, we probably should ask George.

 

[Big J]

Someone put nylon jackets in the dryer? Genius.

 

[Peacoat]

I doubt the Army was tidier than the Air Force. They always looked down on us for being scruffy. Sorry, but we were working, not sitting behind a desk. Only about 3% of the Air Force actually flew the aircraft; the rest were at desks and working on filling filing cabinets.

Maybe our crew chiefs took enough pride in their helicopters to keep them neat and clean. One time I got in trouble with a crew chief (not my assigned chief) when I let 5 or 6 troupers from the 173rd Airborne ride back to Pleiku with us from Dak To. They were going on R&R. When their Captain asked me if I could give them a ride back, I said, "Sure."

What I didn't know was the crew chief had just washed and waxed his bird, inside and out. Little did I know how muddy the Troupers were (they were fresh from the field) and what a mess they made in the cargo compartment. The chief was smart enough not to say anything to me, but he did complain once we got home.

I felt bad about it when it got back to me, but what was I going to say to their Captain, "I'm sorry but the crew chief has just cleaned the aircraft, and we don't want mud in it from your dirty Troupers. Your guys will just have to miss a day or so of R&R." Yea, right. Fortunately the cockpit stayed clean. Had I not been scheduled for missions the next several days, I would have helped the chief clean out the mud.

Now that I think about it that particular A/C may have been 66-16168, the only A/C that tried to kill me, and it tried twice. The second time I made sure that it needed to go to Japan for repair work. I never saw it again. But all of that is a story for another time.

De Oppresso Liber,
P.C.

 

[bn1966]

I'm going to try the gentle cool handwash route on the L-2B given the number of soakings it's survived already during my ownership.

I want to wear it out to a Bike do (not riding wearing it) Saturday night & I'm not at all sure how it got damp at the last party...

What I did own that I shouldn't have sold was an Alpha Replica series MA-1 that someone I'm sure had machine washed & dryed that looked like a used original (at least to my eyes) & was a better fit on me than 'unwashed' versions of the same jacket.

 

[Doctor Damage]

I'm going to try the gentle cool handwash route on the L-2B given the number of soakings it's survived already during my ownership.

Those soakings weren't water, right??

 

[Doctor Damage]

I doubt the Army was tidier than the Air Force...

Thanks for sharing all these experiences, Peacoat. There is no substitute from hearing from people "who were there".

 

[Big J]

Well, Robin Olds was definitely 'there', and he says his plane was dirty in his biography and we have the photos to prove it taken in Thailand.

 

[Big J]

@DD,

I could bore you stupid with anecdotes about my time with two F-4 squadrons in the late 80's. Based in Germany with the 2nd ATAF, flying daily patrols of the ADIZ and fully armed aircraft on alert. All of those F-4s were dirty. But what's the point? On the internet there are people claiming to be all sorts of things. Credibility is low. Therefore I always try to instead refer to accounts written by people who independently verifiably were 'there'.

As for Peacoats comments, I sense a degree of inter service rivalry (not surprising, nor a problem), but aside from all the differences I've already mentioned, there could be a cultural difference between the services that explains perceptions/realities of aircraft 'cleanliness'. I recommend Sherwood's 'Officers in Flight Suits', specifically the chapter titled 'An absence of ring knockers' which casts great light on these cultural differences and their impact on the USAF.

And now I'm thinking of all those dirty F-4s with smokey engines taxiing out blowing dirty brown soot all over the aircraft behind them.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Well, Robin Olds was definitely 'there', and he says his plane was dirty in his biography and we have the photos to prove it taken in Thailand.

I wasn't talking about that and I sure wasn't taking Peacoat's experience to be an indication of support for a broader conclusion of cleanliness or non-cleanliness. I'm quite sure in combat zones aircraft rarely get cleaned as often as they should. I have no doubt some nylon jackets and whatnot got dirty messing around aircraft but I still think intermittent/never cleaning of outerwear was the real issue - how often were nylon jackets cleaned in Korea? Never? Speaking more generally, dirt/crud/etc reduces the performance of lifting surfaces and conceals problems, so if I was piloting something I'd try to make sure the wings at least were shiny clean, haha

 

[bn1966]

Those soakings weren't water, right??

Some of them probably not Doc......

 

[bn1966]

That the dirty deed done..cold water wash (hand) with a mild wool detergent, rinse & now hung up to dry off at room temperature.

 

[Doctor Damage]

That the dirty deed done..cold water wash (hand) with a mild wool detergent, rinse & now hung up to dry off at room temperature.

Keep us posted! Hopefully it gets all the fire water out.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

I wouldn't recommend washing the Nylon, it will eventually loose it's crispy starchiness...well then again I think the Dryer is what will do serious damage more than a washing machine...but Hand wash only if possible.

I've had to wear one in the shower with me once but that's when I lived in the fricken N2-B as a DD....It washed up ok...but It Just got dirty again in no time...there wasn't much point....I would Say..wear it...If you get mustard on it...or coffee...spot clean it with some mild detergent and rinse and air dry...

I've got a 70's N2-B that'd been washed many many times casually...someone clearly stuck it into the Dryer for god knows whatever reason other than the person was a complete imbecile...The fur around the hood matted permanently...the Nylon is softened up and very rippled as the weave bias has been heated up...so you have spots on the Jacket that are weakened, the pockets are worn thin, about to blow.


I retired it and only wear it once in awhile...

My Regular N-2B is looking ok, but actually showing signs of water marks and condensation patches where I've been breathing in it...wear and tear man.

You'll baby the Thing until you snag the elbow or cuffs and at that point all the care you put into the jacket is for nothing.


I wouldn't bother cleaning the Jacket unless it really smelled terrible or like a cat peed on it or something....lord knows some of us have been there with some of our favourite garments.

 

[bn1966]

L-2B turned out fine from a hand wash & air dry, couldn't not clean it given I don't know how it got damp the night I had WAY too many beers...

 

[Deacon211]

Peacoat's perspective is interesting. For my part, I’ve never flown an aircraft that I’d want to rub up against in a white shirt. In addition to the general small leaks of fluids, smears of grease from fittings, and soot from the exhaust there is a general grime that settles like dust on an aircraft’s surface. Depending on how much climbing, scuttling, and clambering you needed to do to get a good preflight in, your flight gear got pretty grimy after awhile.

As for washing our jackets, I never knew anyone who did. The helicopter crews seemed to be the dirtiest, especially the CH-53 guys who exemplified the saying that if it wasn’t leaking, it was empty. But a clean jacket would get dirty in such short order that constantly washing it never seemed worth the effort.

Interestingly, there are some service differences between what might be considered serviceable or not. When the Harrier RAG was short of winter CWU jackets, a lot of guys would go to the inevitable mil surplus shops out in town to see what they could find. The quality of what was DRMOed at Seymore Johnson AFB was markedly better than what was DRMOed at MCAS Cherry Point. So one pilot's “filthy” is another pilot's “broken in”.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Big J]

@Deacon, I'm interested to hear about Marines buying surplus USAF jackets; it really is all about perceptions. The USMC has a long... 'tradition' shall we say, of having to get by on cast-offs from the Army and such, maybe that comes into it? But yeah, that level of grime is something you don't see from looking at airshow and museum aircraft.

I'm also interested that the Army was waxing the insides of helicopters in a combat zone in the Central Highlands, which included the most primitive and improvised operating environments in the entire theater. How, for example, do you walk over to your helicopter from wherever you've been sleeping, without bringing dust/dirt/cloying red mud into the cockpit even if PSP is laid down?
The military, especially the Army and the Navy, seem to have a preoccupation with 'make work' tasks that include seemingly pointless cleaning obsessions. Is this an example of that?

 

[nick123]

How many of those guys still smoked? I'm sure some of that grime is what comes out of a wash. Also, pens. I bet quite a few pilots got pen smudges on their jackets.

 

[Edward]

@Deacon,
The military, especially the Army and the Navy, seem to have a preoccupation with 'make work' tasks that include seemingly pointless cleaning obsessions. Is this an example of that?

I was always under the impression that part of that was conditioning: in combat situations, whoever isin charge needs their orders to be obeyed unquestioningly. Requiring the endless repetition of seeimngly irrelevnt tasks until they are done without question as a 'norm' is a way of achieving this. Of course, I also suspect that in a deployment when a long waiting period is required, invented tasks can helpprovide a distraction against boredom, which must be a threat to discipline.