Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[Viola]

***
It is my understanding that Israel, with in its borders, is very tolerant of other religions. To what extent is Israel a secular nation and a religious nation?

I've never lived there (though I'd like to) but my understanding is that it does have a lot of things equivalent to my own home state of Pennsylvania's "blue-laws" - except instead of the inability to buy liquor in grocery stores, good luck getting a double-bacon-cheeseburger anywhere in the country.

It also doesn't run mass transportation on the Jewish Sabbath.

It also says that only religious marriages are valid. But it doesn't matter what religion; Christian, Islam, Jewish. A secular courthouse marriage made in another country (Cyprus is popular for that) is valid, but you can't get one done at home.

You can serve with the paramedics instead of the Army if you are religiously unable to fight. As far as I know, that goes for Christians and Muslims as well as the pacifistic Orthodox Jews.

Viola

 

[Elaina]

Viola, I think you said what I was trying to far more succintly.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

***
Actually, as a Lutheran, when the Jehova's Witness or the traveling elders for the LDS show up, I am tempted to tell them where they are off track, from the Lutheran view. I just politely send them on their way and admire them for their steadfastness in their faith and hope the Gospel gets thru to them as it should for all Christians.

And, as an agnostic, that's EXACTLY what I do to! I have quite a collection of Watchtowers!

But, the point being, and in reference to your point about the teaching about different religions, including Islam, in schools. There IS a difference between teaching and enticing!

I kind of like those spiritual ideas behind the AA 12 Steps and in their traditions - "This is a program of attraction, rather than promotion."

And, lastly, one of the things that the 12 Steppers have going on is inclusion of ALL. All faiths, or no faith, are welcomed and accepted. Religion, by it's very nature, is founded upon exclusion - the exclusion of those that don't believe as you do. Their primary purpose is carry THEIR message. The 12 Steppers, on the other hand carry THE message. It don't matter how you come, just as long as you arrive. No, if more religions were open to that, then maybe more folks would be open to religion.

 

[carebear]

And, lastly, one of the things that the 12 Steppers have going on is inclusion of ALL. All faiths, or no faith, are welcomed and accepted. Religion, by it's very nature, is founded upon exclusion - the exclusion of those that don't believe as you do. Their primary purpose is carry THEIR message. The 12 Steppers, on the other hand carry THE message. It don't matter how you come, just as long as you arrive. No, if more religions were open to that, then maybe more folks would be open to religion.

The key thing to remember is that most monotheistic religions aren't exclusive because the people "want" them to be, they are exclusive because in order to retain their consistency, they cannot be otherwise.

"You shall have no other G-d before Me", "No man may come to the Father but through me" and "There is no G-d but G-d", if they are truly believed, do not logically admit nor doctrinally permit "including" other gods, no matter how much one wants to. To deny that first principle is to deny the very nature of the Deity.

Religion, to a believer, is not a construct of man to be adjusted to fit our desires (as AA is and acknowledges itself to be), it is a system of reality, created by the Diety, and not open to reinterpretation to fit modern ideas of "multi-culturalism".

Tolerance of others is fine, but changing doctrine? That makes the faith a joke and no more meaningful (perhaps less) than a belief in toasters.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Let's face it...

For those who are spiritually aware and have a consciousness of Christ, "Christ Mass" is an everyday celebration. It is the essence of life itself. We're all self-actualized adults (hopefully!). We don't need an ancient institution to tell us when we can celebrate the Christ within. Having stolen the whole concept from the Mithraists in order to usurp an extant holiday and celebration, "Christmas" is a device used to capture the hearts and minds of illiterate peasants then, and consumers now. It's a gimmick!

Each and every individual can make the choice to close the door on that fairy tale and embrace the celebration of Life in a larger context. Personally, I think that's why were here to begin with, but that is my take on the situation.

In the mean time, Merry Christmas everyone, "and, God bless everyone of us."

http://hinduworld.tripod.com/history/mithra.html

-dixon cannon

 

[carebear]

That said, my offense isn't the removal of overtly religious items from holiday displays, it's the patronizing arrogance of those who include a Menorah, and Kwanzaa stuff and all the others but state that Christmas trees and Santa Claus are somehow representative of Christian beliefs at all, much less sufficient replacements for true symbols of the faith. That we can sing religious hymns of other faiths but "White Christmas" or "Rudolf" are the functional equivalent of a Christian seasonal hymn.

If we can have (and I have no problem with) other overt religious iconography, then we can have a creche and a cross and "Silent Night".

Maybe it's petty, but if I can't have my real symbology, then, in the spirit of equality and inclusiveness, they shouldn't either.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

The key thing to remember is that most monotheistic religions aren't exclusive because the people "want" them to be, they are exclusive because in order to retain their consistency, they cannot be otherwise.

"You shall have no other G-d before Me", "No man may come to the Father but through me" and "There is no G-d but G-d", if they are truly believed, do not logically admit nor doctrinally permit "including" other gods, no matter how much one wants to. To deny that first principle is to deny the very nature of the Deity.

Religion, to a believer, is not a construct of man to be adjusted to fit our desires (as AA is and acknowledges itself to be), it is a system of reality, created by the Diety, and not open to reinterpretation to fit modern ideas of "multi-culturalism".

Tolerance of others is fine, but changing doctrine? That makes the faith a joke and no more meaningful (perhaps less) than a belief in toasters.

I beg to differ. Changing doctrine IS the basic cornerstone of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam - they all started with the SAME book and went from there! And, even within these dogmas, doctine has changed over and over and over again - the Reformation v. Catholicism, Sunni v. Shia, Orthodox Jew v. Reform.

Quite to the contrary - Religion is constantly being adjusted to fit our desires.

 

[carebear]

I beg to differ. Changing doctrine IS the basic cornerstone of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam - they all started with the SAME book and went from there! And, even within these dogmas, doctine has changed over and over and over again - the Reformation v. Catholicism, Sunni v. Shia, Orthodox Jew v. Reform.

Quite to the contrary - Religion is constantly being adjusted to fit our desires.

But not the core doctrine of there being one and only one, self (not man)-defined, exclusive Diety. Once you lose that, you stop being Christian for example, and become a Unitarian.

Christian sectional discussions over the qualification of the priesthood, the supremacy of Rome's bishop or non-textual doctrine like purgatory have no bearing on the core beliefs of the nature of god and the nature of salvation laid out in both the Nicean and Apostle's creed.

Sunni/Shia distinctions are between who can have temporal spiritual authority, not the nature of All-h Himself.

How to interpret the Law of Moses as it now encompasses electricity doesn't impact the essential relationship between the Children of Israel and Y-w-h.

Don't mistake intra-belief quarrels over style with a change in actual substance.

 

[carebear]

So I don't get this locked, we can continue by PM if you want. We've gone well afield.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

But not the core doctrine of there being one and only one, self (not man)-defined, exclusive Diety. Once you lose that, you stop being Christian for example, and become a Unitarian.

Christian sectional discussions over the qualification of the priesthood, the supremacy of Rome's bishop or non-textual doctrine like purgatory have no bearing on the core beliefs of the nature of god and the nature of salvation laid out in both the Nicean and Apostle's creed.

Sunni/Shia distinctions are between who can have temporal spiritual authority, not the nature of All-h Himself.

How to interpret the Law of Moses as it now encompasses electricity doesn't impact the essential relationship between the Children of Israel and Y-w-h.

Don't mistake intra-belief quarrels over style with a change in actual substance.

Again, I beg to differ, especially with your first paragraph. Looking at Catholicism, it's not a monotheistic belief in the basic sense of the term since there is the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit. In Islam, Allah is the messenger of God. But, before that, who brought the message itself? And in Judaism, the Prophets are the voice of the God of Abraham, not God himself. This is not just inter-mural stuff here! Entire systems of belief have spawned from simple mis-interpretations, resentments and happenstance of location! Yes, there is the basic ONE God, for these three religions, but there are a number of other beliefs that are not mono-theistic or God oriented at all that encompass a goodly portion of this planet! Are those billions of people just wrong? And, if so, why hasn't the mono-theistic deity made his presence known to these people in a similar dramatic manner in which he made his presence known to those of the past? Where is the Buddhistic Abraham or the Brahmin burning bush?

I am not making light of your, or anyone else's, beliefs - what I am saying is that it's this kind of exclusiviety that creates the cultural and spiritual backlash that occassionaly is occuring in our society! It's those that are saying this "ours" and ours alone so we're gonna put on a CHRISTMAS play in a public school and those of you that don't believe, well, just deal with it and turn the other cheek - these are the attitudes that are pushing those other 'seekers' away! Every consider, that since every dogma's ideas passes through the filter of humanity, everyone could be right? It's not a matter of the destination, but the quality of the journey? It's not to the exclusion of other beliefs, but to the inclusion of the other's humanity?

I don't know the answer and I never will. But that sure won't stop me from asking and searching and growing IN MY OWN WAY. Isn't that what God wants for me?

 

[carebear]

replied via PM, no more in the open forum okay?

 

[Harp]

Error

Again, I beg to differ, especially with your first paragraph. Looking at Catholicism, it's not a monotheistic belief in the basic sense of the term since there is the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit.

Not to intrude, or expound further, but this statement is intrisically
erroneous as pertains Catholic theological understanding of the Trinity.

 

[Lauren]

Yes- Christian as well. If you want to know about basic Christianity I suggest reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. The book helped me to understand especially the triune montothiestic God. Not being raised with any religion of any kind it answered many questions I had. I'm not trying to force my faith on anyone, but I do genuinely think this book addresses many questions and misunderstandings about the basics of Christian faith in a way which shows for many that religion can co-exist with rational thinking.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Not to intrude, or expound further, but this statement is intrisically
erroneous as pertains Catholic theological understanding of the Trinity.

But not to the general understanding of Catholic Theology. I know, there's quite a back story to the Trinity, but for the lay person, that which may partake of another faith and is told that Catholicism is a mono-theistic belief, yet worships the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, well, you have to admit that it is a mite bit confusing! And THAT is my point! The continued adaptation of religion to accomadate its beliefs.

Ladies and gentlemen, while I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion that has taken place in this thread, that same said debate has caused me to fall behind in other more pressing, and better paying, endeavors!

So, with a hearty thank you, I wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS! Or, Happy Whatever You Choose Or Not Choose To Believe!

 

[Benny Holiday]

Getting back to Marc's original point

I guess what Marc was trying to point out is that society has become more secular over the last couple of decades, to the point where those of us who grew up with a greater emphasis on the religious view of the holiday notice the difference.

I can't speak for what happens over in the USA or the UK, but here in Australia, commercialism, along with the popularisation of Humanist thinking ("if it feels good, do it" = no moral absolutes) in modern society, has led to a marked decrease in the religious content of what is a religious celebration. This understandably saddens, indeed offends, Christians. It's not Joe Blow down the street that's being removed as the focus of the season; millions of Christians believe that the baby born in Bethlehem those two millennia ago was God Incarnate.

As to those arguments about the different religions being offended by the true meaning of Christmas, in this country it's the Humanists that have stirred up all the strife. A lot has said about the possibility of Muslims and others being offended, yet when interviewed in the media after some debate has started about Christmas trees or the mention of Christmas in schools etc., both spokemen for Muslim groups and members of the Islamic community have had no problem whatsoever, understanding that they have emigrated to a country that was founded by a Christian nation and that has Christian roots. In fact, if anything, it's secularim that offends them; they respect Jesus as a great prophet and respect our right to practice Christianity just as they know Australia guarantees their right to freedom of religion.

As Christian values have been eroded from society, so has the true meaning of Christmas (yes I know about pagan festivals etc. I'm talking about CHRISTMAS here, not the origin of the date). Of course, not every member of the populace have always been Christians, but at least there was a time when people knew about the true meaning of the season and were at least taught the moral law. Now, people are taught that there are no moral absolutes, and they're not remindeed of the true meaning of Christmas, either.

In agreement with Marc and many others, I think that's sad. Personally, and this is my view only, someone as special as Jesus Christ deserves a whole lot better than that. I feel sad that He isn't remembered as He should be.

 

[carebear]

So, with a hearty thank you, I wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS! Or, Happy Whatever You Choose Or Not Choose To Believe!

Yeah, but try to fit THAT on a card.

 

[Fletch]

the popularisation of Humanist thinking ("if it feels good, do it" = no moral absolutes)

This isn't the place to go into it in detail, Benny, but you just got humanism 101% wrong. Check here and you'll find a little background.

Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. ...
Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of human nature, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.

 

[Lauren]

But not to the general understanding of Catholic Theology. I know, there's quite a back story to the Trinity, but for the lay person, that which may partake of another faith and is told that Catholicism is a mono-theistic belief, yet worships the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, well, you have to admit that it is a mite bit confusing! And THAT is my point! The continued adaptation of religion to accomadate its beliefs.

Again, I reccomend the book I put forward. There is nothing simple about faith- unless it's blind and ignorant faith. It is confusing- unless you search for theological reasoning. Even if you personally do not belive it it is possible to see it from another's perspective. I wouldn't discount it before you check the resources available.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Thanks Fletch, I dig where you're coming from there, we just have different views on it from a theological/philosophical viewpoint. This is an instance where I simply respect that we have different views!

 

[Fletch]

'K. I can dig it. Everybody's morality comes from somewhere.