Christmas hat disappointment

[carldelo]

I ordered a Stetson Ashland for myself over Christmas, and what a disappointment. Let me say that I’ve been a Stetson partisan for a while, and own four very nice examples. I have a dark brown Ashland that I bought at Bencraft last winter, and it’s been the hat I wear the most.

So, when I saw the same model on sale from hats-plus, I ordered one in caribou, as I need a gray hat. I thought it was a no-brainer, as I’m fully familiar with the model and sizing, but what a mistake! When it arrived, the sweatband was installed out of level by ¼” from one side to the other (see below). As a result, the sweatband stitching actually puckered the felt back by the tag – the puckering was fully visible through the ribbon. Also, the puckering made it a full size small. Even worse, I finally experienced the common complaints about Stetsons: felt like flocked cardboard (to borrow Analogist’s phrasing), very stiff with great clouds of powder, etc. It’s a totally different animal than the one I have.

Anyway, I returned the hat as defective. Hats-plus took it back and initially declined to refund the shipping, saying the hat was OK. This got me pretty steamed and after 10 minutes of phone wrangling, I got him to look over the hat again and he refunded the shipping. I think I should have been compensated for my return shipping charge too. At one point I got “it’s discontinued and on sale, it just goes from inventory to the box”, but hey, it should have been listed as a second and sold that way. I guess they don’t inspect what goes out the door. On the positive side, I see it’s not back in inventory.

So this concludes my tale of woe, and I guess I’ll be buying in person as much as possible – another good reason to live in NYC. I’d be interested to hear if you think I was justified in calling this hat defective or if I overreacted (see additional photos at link). In the end, if the felt had been as nice as my current hat, I might have decided to replace the sweat locally, but it just didn’t seem worth it for this one.

Cheers, Carl

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l234/carldelo/Ashland/

 

[carter]

Carl, You are completely justified.
Frankly, this hat should never have been offered for sale. The defect is obvious from the photo.
Was an offer made to replace the hat with something from their current inventory?
They should have refunded your return shipping charge as well. This level of Customer Service is unacceptable, IMHO.

 

[Lefty]

Weak.
Sorry to hear about that.

 

[ScionPI2005]

I believe that you were completely justified in your actions. The hat is obviously defective from the photo. The excuse that the hat was discontinued and and sale to go right into the box just doesn't cut it.

Sorry to hear the experience wasn't positive.

 

[carldelo]

Carl, You are completely justified.
Frankly, this hat should never have been offered for sale. The defect is obvious from the photo.
Was an offer made to replace the hat with something from their current inventory?
They should have refunded your return shipping charge as well. This level of Customer Service is unacceptable, IMHO.

I just shipped it back for the refund as it was the last one in my size so there was no exchange offer. In the end, I'm out about $9 for the return shipping, which is not so bad, I guess. Thanks for the supportive comments from the others as well --- my wife is in retail and I'd hate to think I'd turned into one of those "problem customers" for whom everything must be picture perfect.

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

Cardelo, my pilosophy (well aware of SP) in life has grown to ...bear the grudge to the tune of $9 or so and...let grass grow. Of course you (appear) right and fully justified; that's just the state of the Union as it has grown to be.
On another level.
Don't accept it and, as a whole, no one should.
Throw a shoe.
Respectfully,
Paul

 

[randooch]

Cardelo: Add my voice to the "totally justifiable to be steamed" group. Personally, I believe that discerning customers are what toe the line for decent quality production; if no one complained, quality would slide inexorably toward crap. I wonder where and by whom new Stetsons are made. That'd be an interesting thing to research, although some fellow loungers probably already know the answer. May your next hat purchase be more pleasant.

 

[Tomasso]

Throw a shoe.

lol

 

[carldelo]

Cardelo: Add my voice to the "totally justifiable to be steamed" group. Personally, I believe that discerning customers are what toe the line for decent quality production; if no one complained, quality would slide inexorably toward crap. I wonder where and by whom new Stetsons are made. That'd be an interesting thing to research, although some fellow loungers probably already know the answer. May your next hat purchase be more pleasant.

A little more info - the Stetson I got from Bencraft is a great hat and seems relatively new - it has the nice brown sweat and white liner. The turkey seemed older somehow, and I think it is at least several years old. The other recent Stetson I bought (a Chatham from VHS) is also a good hat. Maybe the problem was a few years ago and has been rectified? Here's hoping - and for me at least, the proof will be in my hand and on my head before I pay the bill.

 

[Justdog]

Sad statement

Your justified. A sad statement to a great name.

 

[Matt Deckard]

No need to replace the band on a brand new hat. It should be done right the first time.

Stetson puts most of their attention on their western hats. I was told that by the head of Stetson's Dress hat division, and you can see it by just feeling the felt and looking at the construction. The last few times I talked to them they went the route of saying dress hats are dead, though that was 2 or 3 years ago. I'm sure they are seeing a resurgence of dress hat sales, yet with the hierarchy being into western Hatco may take sometime to get out a better product. I'm not impressed with the variance in the thickness of the felt used for the Nostalgia... It's like they stretch the crown too much on some because they aren't making the original cones large enough... to accommodate for the higher block that is used for the nostalgia.

Since they read these boards they'll know what I'm talking about. I'm glad they make hats, and some are pretty awesome, though I'm a stickler for quality, and I still don't think the market is big enough for them to support their dress hat division.

I do like Bailey's hats... they tend to do a good job at keeping their models uniform in construction.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Hi Carl

Sorry about your situation. However, you paid for X and got Y. I support your position.

I do my best to research the companies I do business before I buy. I will pay more for better customer service.

I could go on and on. Perhaps I am one of those "problem customers" [huh]

 

[Tomasso]

They should have refunded your return shipping charge as well. This level of Customer Service is unacceptable, IMHO.

Sadly, the business philosophy which stressed that "The customer is always right", which merchant princes like Marshall Field and John Wanamaker based their fortunes on, has gone the way of the buffalo, for the most part.

 

[Colby Jack]

Matt...Indycop and I were discussing this very subject earlier today. Hatco may be more interested in their cowboy line, thus leaving the dress hats to fall by the wayside. Then again...their cowboy line isn't exactly up to standards either. They have every opportunity (by reading sites like ours and others) to get the pulse on what they're doing right and what needs to be done. I think they honestly don't care...and this shows in everything they do. At a time when businesses are closing left and right...they have study groups commenting on a daily basis (us) about the hats they would like to see and buy.
Many of us have been waiting for the Nostalgia to come out, and the mixed reviews are plentiful. There are also hat stores still waiting to receive their stock of these hats. Just like better gun manufacturers have "custom" shops, maybe they could offer something similar. I've read many a thread that discusses the need for the Whippet, Stratoliner and other classics be reproduced. The problem would be that even if they were able to make these hats, the quality would not be there. Just look at their catalog...you'll see endless variations of the same hat...and very little else.
Ok...I'm sorry if I've droned on about this subject, but we need these old companies to find that touch of quality again.

 

[Wolfwood]

Huh, what would have to be done to erect some decent customer protection laws in the States, with the customers protected by a customer protection agency who would fight with the companies if customers themselves are too easy to ignore?

And, yes, very justified and you should have got the return postage refunded as well!

 

[carter]

I don't believe we need to toss Hatco and the Stetson line under the bus with Hats-Plus based on this incident.
No doubt the hat in question should not have left the factory. QC should have caught the problem. They didn't.
The retailer should have caught the mistake and returned the hat to Hatco or refused delivery. They didn't.
The retailer should not have sold the hat. THey did.
The retailer's level of customer service is unacceptable.

That's the story. A poorly constructed hat made it out of the factory and all the way to the end user who caught the mistake and returned the product even though the retailer's customer service person was decidedly unhelpful

fftopic: There is a lot that Hatco could do to make fedora lovers happy but economics do matter. Their focus is on Western hats because that is where they make their money.

I'd like to see better fedoras from them.
I'd like to see thm revive some of the old styles and quality.
I'd like to have seen them make the Nostalgia with 100% beaver felt, a bound edge, and a wider ribbon. They chose not to and, IMHO, dropped the ball big time. But...that is not the topic of this thread.

 

[MattJH]

I seriously can't believe the entire sweatband is crooked like that. That's amazing. Yes, you're justified, and I don't think you'll find anybody in the world that would say otherwise. The picture says it all.

While it's true that many more people these days are wearing dress hats, it doesn't mean that most really know the difference between a Stetson Nostalgia and a Stetson Playboy. To go a step further, I'm pretty sure that some wouldn't really care all that much, either. They just want to wear a hat.

The hilarity of the original picture aside, I can see why Stetson doesn't put their line of dress hats on a higher priority than they do, I guess. It doesn't mean that I like it. I do wonder why they wouldn't want to satisfy every niche that they can regardless of its size, and I would assume that the more that you nurture a product, the more new customers you'd gain. But then again, in video and photo of the mid-west (I've never been, by the way), I tend to see cowboy hats far more often than I do a dress hat. Significantly more. When I was younger, I equated the Stetson name exclusively with the cowboy hat. Not once did I think it could refer to a fedora. Maybe they think that an increased investment in their dress hat line just isn't worth it, and I see their point from a business perspective. You really can't satisfy everybody.

But that sweatband... seriously? Hahaha.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Cheers to Akubra and Art and Mark and the rest of them. More for you.

 

[demian]

Well, I wished to make the comments that yes you were justified in returning it in this case as the hat was clearly defective and was not noted before selling. Also shipping as it is not a general quality/opinion issue.

That the seller's behavior was "unacceptable" is too much. (Little reality check, I do not know if many here have ever ben out of the States for a time, yet only America is it common practice to give refunds. Believe me when I tell you, customer service in the States is like no other in the world.)

Should it have been inspected beforehand? Sure.
Was it correct that shipping was refunded in this case? Sure, as the item was defective to begin once again.


I am sure the seller learned a lesson here as well as it is time and money wasted...and I am sure he.she wil not be dealing much in Stetson any longer.

So it will go up the chain and hopefully eliminate the problem where it needs to be....



HOWEVER, although I should probably stop here, I won't! (smile)

I do tend to have issues with those who are unreasonable purchasing online...and there are many.

To expect returns regarding issues of general Stetson quality not being up to par would be unreasonable and unfair.

Sure the retailer may do this at thier discretion per their policies (which should be noted beforehand and is the responsibility of the BUYER), but shipping, no.

The internet without question is a godsend to artists, artisans, world-business, etc...

...as a fine art painter and dealer I have sold and purchased items online ranging from $500-50k without issue.

Yet I have witnessed the internet (and increased technology dependance) has created a strange phenomena in my experience.

Impatience and the "gotta have it" .. "right now" is not a quality of only the young anymore. Paranoia, obsession, compulsive behavior, have all become inflamed, or perhaps merely reflecting what already always existed. Vis a vis "consumerism"...very unhealthy...and complete buyer irresponsibility.


If the internet reflects anything it is the true character of people. No matter what rules and regulations are created, one cannot substitute for an individual's lack of morals.

Yet as convenient as it is, it is the internet people. Everyone so **loves** these conveniences, yet seem to leave their common sense and individual responsibility behind and often times are incredibly unreasonable not taking into account that their remains a **real-world** out there that must be dealt with as well and get upset after the fact when it was not just so smooth and seemless...

As convenient as it is, it is no different than any other transaction or business dealing generally, yet one **is** purchasing via images and often times sight unseen. It is simply a matter of asking the right questions much of the time.

In this case, as the item is truly a "Second" it was a mistake of the seller. Shipping should IMHO be refunded, but this depends on the seller's policies which one should read beforehand.

Is the seller responsible for the quality of the items sold, yes and no.

The harshness towards the seller and whining is unnecessary within the responses I feel. The seller probably did not even note the flaw. It happens...so what. Get a life.

Unfortunately it has become cliche to blame on sellers. This is ignorance really, as well as paranoia partially.

Buyer cons, dishonesty, and unreasonable behavior is far more commonplace than sellers I assure you. People oddly seem to be so critical of their own market economy and capitalism they are so proud of and boast about. Yet capitalism is what it is. It is quite ugly in many respects let's remember..you gotta make a living..

..and personally, encouraging this obsessive and unhealthy behavior saddens me often these days strangely.

Yes this item should have been sold as a "second" and the flaw apparently not known (perhaps).

I think many of us need to learn to ask the right questions, and if sellers cannot take the time to provide additional images or information to assist us in making a decision, *let them keep it* .. don't be *obsessive*.

Most people are quite honest.
As they say, "buy the seller, not the item."

Simply some thoughts, for whatever it is worth. Excuse the length.

For whatever reason this gave me pause when I read it, and remain completely neutral in all of this and have no involvement. I'm merely an observer....

Sorry to hear of your experience nonetheless.
Another reason to go vintage!

Ciao

 

[Wolfwood]

That the seller's behavior was "unacceptable" is too much. (Little reality check, I do not know if many here have ever ben out of the States for a time, yet only America is it common practice to give refunds. Believe me when I tell you, customer service in the States is like no other in the world.)

Huh, that's true. In Finland, for example, it is the law that defective items must be replaced or refunded - with no cost to the customer. And you also get a 14 day return policy, allowing you to return ANY ITEM purchased online to the seller with FULL refund whatever the reason may be (no reason required).

How's that for customer service outside the States?

 

[Colby Jack]

I don't think we need anymore laws...we have enough. We have "lemon" laws. We also rely on businesses to do the right thing. When they don't, word gets out and they soon find themselves out of business. It's up to the businesses themselves to check quality control. That hat never should have left the building.