Chocolate Chip rag-tagged US Army...

[Tango Yankee]

I'm glad we didn't go with an eight point hat because I'm not a Marine!

If you were assigned to USCENTAF you'd be wearing one. When I first arrived at Shaw AFB, SC, my first impression was "What's with all the Marines in DCUs?" until I got close enough to see the USAF insignia. Seven months later I was moved over to USCENTAF myself. The uniform of the day was the DCU despite the fact we were stateside. This was supposed to remind us that our focus was the desert, as if we couldn't remember that on our own. Whenever I deployed I switched to the floppy hat as I felt embarrassed to be wearing a Marine cover. As much as I loved the USAF I didn't feel I had earned the right to wear something that would cause someone to mistake me for a Marine.

The AF seemed to migrate to everyone wearing BDUs after Desert Storm. We were warfighters and we were going to dress the part even if we did spend most of our duty day behind a computer keyboard. It got to the point where if you were in blues it was assumed that you were either in trouble and had to see the commander or going before a board of some sort. Never made sense to me. I had a theory that the "fattening up" of the AF coincided with this. The BDU is a sloppy-looking uniform with adjustable waists and can sure cover up a lot that blues can't!

Cheers,
Tom
SMSgt, USAF, Ret.

 

[Harp]

Long ago and far away, I once had to secure a flank with AF radio
techs who told me they had never fired an M-16---the only guy among
them whom had was an ex-Marine retread, so I gave him an M-60.
I guess times have changed, hopefully so.

 

[griffer]

Cam shouldn't happen off base or the field.

Bitch about the dress uniforms, but leave the battle gear out of it.

I can't believe people are criticizing the battle uniform in all its variations.

And for all those pining for the good ol' days, look at the troops in WWII. Look at D-Day uniforms. Those sloppy bums jerry rigged and humped their way across Europe. I don't think anyone cared that they weren't the sharpest dressed- they had had their fill of the sharp dressed soldier.

I personally think the RAID mods and newer stuff coming out can look very sharp. But they are designed to work- be covered with molle plate carriers, covered in muck, etc.

I am remembering the scene with Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam...

 

[Haversack]

I was active duty in VII Corps in the first half of the 1980s when the US Army changed from fatigues to the first generation of BDUs. They were immensely popular with those of us who went to the field with any regularity. They had seat and knee reinforcements, all those pockets, and loose enough to layer cold weather clothes underneath.

However, they didn't look strack enough for some of the senior NCOs and field grades. So some units had to starch them, (ruining their anti-IR capability, web belts had to be worn over them at all times to present a tighter, more defined waist, the pull-down ear flaps in the caps had to be cut off to prevent their unmilitary-looking use. There were also a couple of battalions that were issued an early version of the rough-out sueded boots as a test. It did'nt work because the Sergeant Major ordered all the troops to sandpaper down the suede till they could be polished.

It was an interesting time because of the range of equipment in use. Our issued cold weather gear was the same heavy wool shirt and trousers form the Korean War. They even had the yellow on black US ARMY name tape on the shirt. The M1 Abrams had just been introduced and on their first REFORGER discovered that their exhaust was so hot that it would blister the paint of cars that followed too close on the highways.

Haversack.

 

[Tango Yankee]

Long ago and far away, I once had to secure a flank with AF radio
techs who told me they had never fired an M-16---the only guy among
them whom had was an ex-Marine retread, so I gave him an M-60.
I guess times have changed, hopefully so.

These days you generally have to qualify on the M-16 every other year, or annually if you are in a "combat" or deployable unit. Despite the fact that I have scored "expert" with the M-16 I really didn't feel that was often enough if we were going into the field for real.

For the most part the average Airman's biggest threat these days is in Iraq and is the odd mortar round that gets lobbed on air bases from time to time, with the exception of the Transportation troops who are out running convoys with the Army.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

the pull-down ear flaps in the caps had to be cut off to prevent their unmilitary-looking use.

That's very interesting. During WW2 several nations issued caps with pull down ear/head flaps but you virtually never see pictures of soldiers with them pulled down. It seems to have been either a point of honor or of style always to wear the cap with the flaps up even in cold weather, or else they had an NCO or officer yell at them for pulling them down...

 

[52Styleline]

Frankly, I am not sorry to see the Navy uniform (enlisted) change, especially the working uniform. The old chambray shirts and bell bottom dungarees always looked like the garb inmates wear. The old cotton fabrics were horrid to keep pressed. The 13 button wool dress uniform looked good but was frankly a bear to live with. When I was an enlisted man, we all carried our wallets in our socks because there were no pockets. We were issued one pair of 13 button woll trousers and two pairs with zipper and belt. Guess which one most sailors wore.The reason for the bell bottoms was simple tradition, going back to the wooden ship days when sailors had to roll up their pant legs while working on holystoneing the decks. Supposedly they also were easier to pull off in the water, and could be fashioned into an improvised flotation device, but even in WWII few sailors who were forced into the water removed their trousers. The new Navy enlisted work uniform appears to me to be practical for shipboard environment. When I was a Navy enlisted man, many of the old hands thought the shift from white jumpers to white short sleeve shirts in the tropical white uniform spelled the end of a functioning Navy. We still managed to do our jobs pretty well despite the carping of the old salts. There really was no excuse for the dixie cup hat. It was useless in the rain and gave slim protection in the sun. A baseball type cap was worn with the working uniform and some form of dress cover with a brim and actual protection should have been added years ago. As a Naval officer, I had a billed uniform hat and could install a waterproof plastic cover when required. I also wore a baseball type cap with my working uniform. The poor enlisted men had to stand out in the weather with rain running down their faces because all the dixie cup did was collect and soak up rain.

Naval officers uniforms aren't really all that different now than they were in my day except the fabrics are much easier to maintain.

I have no problem with the uniforms worn by Army and Marines. They can still look sharp when necessary. The only objection I have is to the widespread adoption of berets for nearly everyone. At one time, that headgear was the indicator of an elite corps and was earned. Now everyone wears them and I think they look silly on most people.

Heck, if you are really a traditionalist, all English troops would still be wearing bright red boiled wool regardless of the climate. Things change. I am all for making uniforms incidental to the job so that grunts, jarheads, and squids can focus on their job rather than on their attire.

 

[RaasAlHayya]

Woad is also traditional.

--Leslie

 

[jkingrph]

When I was active duty AF officer in the70's fatigues (not bdu's then) or utilitity uniforms such as whites for medics, cooks, ect were not allowed off base, except for commute to and from, but best not stop off anywhere. The same rule applied for flight gear, ie jump suits.

Joined active reserve in time to be called up during Desert Storm. Everyone had to wear bdu's then even stateside no matter what job. I was assigned to a contigency hospital in England then and uniform was bdu's.

My feeling is that bdu should be reserved for field training, jobs, or combat areas. I also think the wear of dress uniform (not full formal dress) should be encouraged more esp when traveling on orders ect. It seems that that trend died out during Vietnam war when servicemen were ridiculed, spat upon ect,ect., but times have changed.

We need to bring back more pride in serving.

Jeff

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Re: boots spit and polish

Have the suede boots been around long enough that one can make an assessment about their effects on discipline? As i understand it, the pointless task (and really, it is pointless for the training of a battlefield soldier) of polishing ones boots to a high shine at all times was all about moulding the recruit into the kind of automaton (not a criticism: This is what drill instructors are there for - destroy and rebuild the psychology of the recruit) that would follow orders unquestioningly. I would think that taking away such physhologically moulding techniques would reduce the discipline of a recruit.

Ditto the perfect pressing of uniforms. Pointless except for the discipline aspect.

bk

 

[BegintheBeguine]

My hubby doesn't care for the sloppy look of the suede boots but admits they are much more practical in the hot blazing sun. He also realized that shining his black boots in boot camp and during technical training gave him something to do. The ACU is so much smarter than the BDU in the desert since our guys haven't been in the jungle for about 30 years. :eusa_doh: Back home, around base there were laundries and cleaners that advertised Heaviest Starch for the BDU:

ACU:

The velcro is noisy in the dead of night, though.

 

[carebear]

Baron,

There's more to spit and polish than to generate automatic response to instruction. That's actually the purpose of close-order drill, and it isn't to create "automatons" but to remove indecision. On the battlefield I want my Marines to be thinking, but I want them doing it on the move, while responding to orders that will keep them alive and allow them to win, not standing there dying.

The purpose of spit and polish, and dress uniforms, and formations, and inspections, and medal ceremony's and all the other ceremonial aspects of military life are designed to instill pride, pride in your appearance = pride in your Service and unit. That pride lends a sense of fellowship among the men, not only to each other, but to the men who went before them, whose memories and deeds we need to live up to, and to the men who will follow us, to provide them an example of the warrior virtues to inspire them in turn.

The ceremonys and history of a unit are a large part of what separate soldiers from an armed mob. It allows men to act as warriors but not descend into savagery. No matter how meaningless Private Schmuckatelli may think wasting time shining his boots on a Sunday evening for a Monday all-hands inspection is, in the big picture he needs those little "meaningless wastes of time" or he'll eventually be no better than the enemies of civilization he joined up to fight.

 

[BegintheBeguine]

Well said, carebear. It helps the men look out for each other as well.

 

[Baggers]

Well spoken, Carebear. :cheers1: :arated:

Cheers!

 

[deanglen]

Matt, you've said what I've been thinking all along in this thread. Good for you!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap .

dean

 

[Ben]

I don't recall where I read this, but I do remember reading that the best dressed armies have always fared worst on the battlefields.

It may have been in Stan Lee's 'Book of the Worst", but as I recall, William C. Westmoreland was listed as one of the best dressed men right around the time the US realized that the Vietnam War was a hopeless cause.

Too much concern over uniforms and appearance hinders operation effectiveness, it seems to me, like when the Pentagon was ordering special forces troops in Afghanistan to shave their beards. They had grown them to belnd in more with the native population.

Just a random couple of thoughts that popped in my head reading this thread.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I don't recall where I read this, but I do remember reading that the best dressed armies have always fared worst on the battlefields.

It may have been in Stan Lee's 'Book of the Worst", but as I recall, William C. Westmoreland was listed as one of the best dressed men right around the time the US realized that the Vietnam War was a hopeless cause.

Too much concern over uniforms and appearance hinders operation effectiveness, it seems to me, like when the Pentagon was ordering special forces troops in Afghanistan to shave their beards. They had grown them to belnd in more with the native population.

Just a random couple of thoughts that popped in my head reading this thread.

Eddie Izzard does a wonderful skit about the success that would be associated with the 38th Transvestite Brigade . . .

"What could be more surprising than the First Battalion Transvestite Brigade, Airborne Wing, parachuting into dangerous areas with FANTASTIC makeup?"


bk

 

[Story]

Any comments...?

Technically, the 'chocolate chips' (or 'six-color-desert-Battle-Dress-Utilities) went out after Mogadishu.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/bdu-6-desert-p.jpg

The three color desert BDU was what was issued at the beginning of OEF/OIF.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/camo-desert-3.jpg

Personally, I can think of alot better tasks for my soldiers from first til last formation than boot shining. This includes both deployed and home station, maybe I'm just an imaginative kinda guy.

As long as the issued uniform and equipment are clean and serviceable, and the soldiers' personal hygiene is acceptable, then we're off to the races. As for the non-line soldiers in administrative positions wearing ACUs to their duty positions, I gather that's part of the 'one-Army' concept reminding us that there are no *front* lines. Maybe we'll even work up to 'every soldier a rifleman' (hope springs eternal).

And as for tradition, we've always looked a bit rough around the edges.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

I don't recall where I read this, but I do remember reading that the best dressed armies have always fared worst on the battlefields.

I guess a lot of that depends on how you define "best dressed." I would certainly say that gaudy armies often fair poorly on the battlefield, as do armies where the primary peacetime training consists of keeping up "show" appearances. The Russians and British in 1853, and the French in 1914 come to mind.

 

[Harp]

Too much concern over uniforms and appearance hinders operation effectiveness, it seems to me, like when the Pentagon was ordering special forces troops in Afghanistan to shave their beards. They had grown them to belnd in more with the native population.

Just a random couple of thoughts that popped in my head reading this thread.

...the Brass is always razor happy with SF; and it's the unlimitedno?sasked
"Green Beret expense account" the Brass really likes to cut. lol